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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #181
Sen
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I don't like the current streetcars, they are ugly, slow (even on dedicated ROWs) and dont carry a lot of people, can't wait to see their replacement when they arrive.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:09 PM   #182
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thats probably because you are relatively new to the city? a couple of years maybe? I think the ones that grew up through in Toronto like them for their nostalgia.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:23 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post

We already know people prefer riding a streetcar over a bus...replace a bus route with a streetcar, and watch ridership climb. And ridership is an important factor in the transit business.

This is not to say they would work well everywhere.
Two major points here that I'd like to highlight, thank you KGB:

1. No one gets excited about buses. Streetcars are cool.

2. Streetcars don't work well everywhere, thats why the TTC system is a mixture of buses, heavy-rail subways, light-rail(streetcar) subways, streetcars w/ and w/o ROW's, and elevated light-rail. This combination gives Toronto by far the best transit system, and certainly the most varied, in Canada.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:29 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkram View Post
This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.
You can't have ROW's in the inner city.

And maybe public transit is making a comeback in Montreal, but in Toronto it never left. Who gives a damn if montrealers want electric buses? That's your problem.

The term 'reverting' would apply to a city that, for nostalgic reasons, would install a streetcar system that they mistakenly removed almost a century ago. Toronto had the sense to keep it's system, and now enjoys a 140-year heritage of street-oriented transit, something that Montreal completely lacks.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 02:14 AM   #185
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I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.

-Sleek looking wide body continuous trains with low floor access



-right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)



-LRT and BUS also don't exclude each other, you can have bus and LRT on the same route, bus can be the "local service", and LRT the "express service", with ROW implemented on Spadina I think the major reasons to its slow speed are frequent stops and low maximum speed. LRT is pointless if it can't go faster than a regular bus.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 02:46 AM   #186
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Not taking elkram's side, but civil engineers will agree, better to run rail vehicles and road vehicles in segregated environments, not a shared thoroughfare.

It doesn't take a civil engineer to figure that out...and to expand on that, it isn't so much the vehicle type that should be segregated, but public transit vehicles of any kind should have their own ROW and not be hampered by traffic.

But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic.




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Of all my comments, you didn't peg onto my claim about busses being refashioned into possessing promising technology that's coming on-stream

Oh don't worry, I haven't overlooked a single morsel of your juicey commentary on the subject. What you fail to understand is that the key to the success of our streetcars over buses has nothing to do with technological improvements on the bus....it has to do with the fundemental differences between a bus and a streetcar.





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but then again nothing more than sheer mediocrity hails from Canada

Yea...that's really profound.





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Old June 21st, 2007, 03:57 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic.
Ahh, thanks for summing that up. My head was hurting trying to read this thread. Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable so it doesn't get screwed over if there is an accident on the tracks or stuck behind left turners (assuming it is running through the middle).

Also, while I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...), there is no argument that a bus is faster if the route has lots of turns in it.
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 04:06 AM   #188
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^ what about capacity? A streetcar holds far more than a bus, and if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.

If an accident shuts down a street, both streetcar and bus have to choose a new route. Streetcar's do this all the time in Toronto when necessary, because the grid allows it.

As for the last point, due to Toronto's grid, there are rarely turns on any streetcar route.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 04:27 AM   #189
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Quote:
I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...)

I'm afraid elkram doesn't have such power....I disagree with him because I don't believe he is right...not just because it's him saying it. If he says something I agree with, I'll acknowledge it. That's just an unproven theory at the moment, mind you. he he



Quote:
Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable

As has already been pointed out, this theoretical manuverability advantage of the bus you think exists is rarely going to actually give it an advantage in a real life scenario on the streets of Toronto. Why would we throw out all of the proven advantages of the streetcar, to reap a small advantage that "might" exist with the bus?

It's all about the net result, and when you weigh all of the factors of the two, the streetcar wins in the end.




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Old June 21st, 2007, 04:39 AM   #190
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if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.
Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.

A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again. A bus has to pull over to load/unload, allowing traffic to fill that gap by passing it on the left. The bus also has to generally change lanes all the time, which is only as good as the cars that let you in.

You see, the bus's manueverability is actually one of it's weaknesses.






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Old June 21st, 2007, 06:30 AM   #191
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There is certainly much room for improvement in Montreal's buses, however...anyone left standing in a big blue cloud of choking fumes will attest to that. And what is with them not allowing you to take your bike on a bus? Perhaps elkram should take that thought and... carry it over to the Montreal thread. The truth is, Montrealers (well, the real ones, anyway) would be thrilled to bits to get "trams" back, and I can't imagine many are happy that they did the "sheep thing" and got rid of them all back in the 50's in favour of diesel guzzling buses. In any case, elkram will never have to encounter a "tram" out in the suburb of Laval where he lives. He is more used to the trolley buses from when he lived in Vancouver and I doubt has ever experienced the urban thrill of an actual streetcar system.
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Last edited by Taller, Better; June 21st, 2007 at 07:27 AM.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 06:55 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.

A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again.


KGB
The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 07:15 AM   #193
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The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.
In my past, the time or two I was nearly decked was by an out of town driver. Once a guy from Saskatchewan nearly creamed me, as he obviously had no idea
what the streetcar was doing. You really have to look when you step off the car, and most drivers are keenly aware of approaching traffic and will caution you.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 07:36 AM   #194
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Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year.

Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.





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Old June 21st, 2007, 07:43 AM   #195
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^ I'll never understand why they didn't install stop signs like those on school buses... seems like a no-brainer to me. Won't stop some people, but it would help.

Man oh man, nothing riles up that wonderful righteous pedestrian rage than some ******* blasting past an open streetcar door.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 08:18 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year. Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.KGB


In my experience the streetcar drivers really do take their jobs seriously, and ensure the coast is clear before they open the doors. They are always leaning over and peering... they caution people frequently to be careful. I think only a daft pillock would use that lame excuse to get rid of the streetcars in Toronto. I have descended from streetcars thousands of times in my life, and only twice have been surprised by errant motorists.. both out of towners. I've been nearly creamed or mowed down by buses in various cities.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 09:29 AM   #197
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In Melbourne the older style trams had extended (by the doors) stop signs but then new ones don't, as their doors slide back against the side of the tram.
Personally I've seen someone hit by a car that didn't stop for him as he alighted, but this is quite rare. In Victoria (the state in which Melbourne's located) there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do. And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.
Another way to reduce the risk is the construction of 'super stops' which are like mini train platforms in the middle of the road. These completely seperate commuters from traffic except from the trams themselves.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 10:08 AM   #198
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there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do.

Everybody knows what the deal is here...sure, there may be the odd out-of-towner who has no knowledge of how the streetcar thing works (and is too daft to bother reading the large signs posted right on the streetcar). But basically, all the people who dangerously whiz by the streetcar are people who know very well, but are hell-bent on getting past the streetcar and seem to think death-defying feats of driving is a sane idea at the time.

There's nothing more dangerous than an impatient driver.

The worse part isn't the risk-the-life-of-streetcar-passenger to get where you are going 26 seconds sooner, it's the race-the-streetcar at the intersection when the light turns green to get in front, when there are parked cars ahead blocking the right lane.




Quote:
And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.

Our streetcars have the same signs. Thankfully, the drivers are aware of the oncoming traffic, and generally won't even open the doors until they see traffic stopped first.

And not to put all the blame on cars, as streetcar passengers need to pay more attention. But as we all know, these days most people are in their little self-induced semi-comas....between the cell phones and Ipods, most people are only vaguely aware of what's going on around them. And it's amazing how many people risk their lives running across red lights to catch a streetcar. King streetcars run every two minutes...where's the logic risking your life to save two minutes???????


I'd like to summerize by saying...HUMANS ARE STUPID!! and I'm moving to another planet ASAP.





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Old June 21st, 2007, 10:48 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen View Post
I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.

-right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)

I love the turf ROW...I would love to see something like that in Toronto...could they start on Queensway?

Cheers, m
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Old June 21st, 2007, 02:05 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year.

Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.





KGB
It wasn't an argument against streetcars at all, it was an argument on where they can be improved, an area of concern that can be addressed. It is an argument for central road platforms.

I think someone being killed getting off a streetcar has happened before, but I agree it is extremely rare and almost doesn't happen. Even if people aren't getting killed though, if this is something that can be improved, I think it would be worthwhile.

T,B: I agree that that is true if you get off at the front doors. Can't do much for you getting off at the back though.
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