daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 21st, 2007, 02:11 PM   #201
TRZ
Welcome to the Rail World
 
TRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,671
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
I'd like to summerize by saying...HUMANS ARE STUPID!! and I'm moving to another planet ASAP.





KGB
I knew you were an alien.
__________________
Pssst... your balls are showing...

EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME transit geek
TRZ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 21st, 2007, 04:21 PM   #202
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
It wasn't an argument against streetcars at all, it was an argument on where they can be improved, an area of concern that can be addressed. It is an argument for central road platforms.

I agree..it is an area of concern, and anything that can be implimented to address safety should be looked at. Platforms aren't much good, as the problem with some routes are the lack of space for anything.

It isn't the streetcars that are the problem anyway...it's the other vehicles on the road, so any improvements should address the cause of the problem.

Perhaps little arms on the back of the streetcar that come down when the streetcar stops...people aren't going to purposely go through an actual barrier (and the vast majority who illegally pass a stopped streetcar do so knowingly).

Definetely they should blitz streetcar routes and fine the hell out of motorists that vilolate all regulations....illegal left-hand turns, passing when the streetcar is stopped (perhaps a plate-catching camera operated by the streetcar operator). It should be treated like they do school buses now...serious fines and loss of licenses for violations.



Quote:
I love the turf ROW...I would love to see something like that in Toronto...could they start on Queensway?

The new Queensway ROW is almost finished (the landscaping part). Grass is not an indigenous plant, and therefore requires high maintenance...not a good idea. I much prefer the trees and shrubs they are putting in instead.





KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 21st, 2007, 05:08 PM   #203
Taller, Better
Administrator
 
Taller, Better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 71,074
Likes (Received): 12280

Even where there is room for a central platform, and that is not the case on
some of the older lines, that does not completely erase the possibility of a car-pedestrian accident. Human stupidity extends to the passengers, too, and you should see some of them try to dart through traffic from a platform, because they are in a hurry to catch a bus, etc... some people barely look at oncoming traffic. I've even seen people leap over barriers when it is clearly not safe to do so.
It is truly amazing how few people have been killed, if any, in the 140 year history of the streetcar.
__________________
'Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood."
-architect Daniel Burnman
Taller, Better no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 21st, 2007, 11:08 PM   #204
elkram
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 337
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
Montrealers (well, the real ones, anyway) would be thrilled to bits to get "trams" back
The sole feedback from around town here has been trolleys instead of trams (please!). Besides, how can you imagine motorists here (real Montrealers, being the way we are here) would be bright enough at properly assessing what they'd be up against while busily cutting off trams?!? Montreal motorists -- more so than most cities around the continent -- are selfish drivers who possess no thrilled wish to share their roadways with trains-in-street. Trams would be fought here, fiercely; many dwellers honed their shrewdness getting the City to abandon a major plan of theirs late Winter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
***** envy... and I suspect he has much to be envious of... LOL!).
You're more the bratty pervert than the perverse brat . . . text like yours just above here tells me it's impossible for you to promote your sleeps from some (yuck) mangy twin mattress . . . you're a sad kid, oh well.

Last edited by elkram; June 21st, 2007 at 11:22 PM.
elkram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 21st, 2007, 11:53 PM   #205
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
The sole feedback from around town here has been trolleys instead of trams (please!).

Well, I've never underestimated Montreal's knack for poor municipal decisions.





KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 21st, 2007, 11:54 PM   #206
Tcmetro
Registered User
 
Tcmetro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis/Chicago
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 17

Seems like Torontians and Montrealers don't get along much. Why all the hostility? Personally I think Toronto's trams are large icon of the city, and helped shape the city to it's greatness. I wish my city would invest in streetcars. Too bad we, like many other cities across the globe, dismantled our systems. Keep up the good work, Toronto!

P.S. What's the difference between trams and trolleys?
Tcmetro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 12:02 AM   #207
Sen
Registered User
 
Sen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,644
Likes (Received): 24

Trolleys dont run on track, it is like a regular bus but powered by electrical wire overhead.
Sen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 12:20 AM   #208
Tcmetro
Registered User
 
Tcmetro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis/Chicago
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 17

Oh, in the US what you reffered to is a trolleybus. Streetcar, trolley, tram typically mean all the same thing in the US. That might be because trolleybuses in the US are only in Seattle, Boston, Dayton, and San Francisco.
__________________

DanielFA liked this post
Tcmetro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 01:01 AM   #209
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,465
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
Seems like Torontians and Montrealers don't get along much. Why all the hostility? Personally I think Toronto's trams are large icon of the city, and helped shape the city to it's greatness. I wish my city would invest in streetcars. Too bad we, like many other cities across the globe, dismantled our systems. Keep up the good work, Toronto!

P.S. What's the difference between trams and trolleys?
Toronto's streetcars are definately very unique and iconic to the city seeing as the models that are used here are almost totally exclusive to the city.

There is no hostility between people in Toronto and Montrealers. A while ago, but not that long in the past Montreal was the superior city in just about every respect. This is no longer the case, Toronto has since surpassed Montreal in most respects. This has left many petty individuals kind of bitter. Draw your own conclusions.
__________________

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." --John Stuart Mill

Special thanks to Ttownfeen for giving me the author of the quote above

To quote some wise men whos names I can not remember:

"Conservative politics is like masterbation, it takes a lot of jerking things around and only pays off for those who do it."
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 11:43 AM   #210
allurban
All Urban
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 4,348
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
The new Queensway ROW is almost finished (the landscaping part). Grass is not an indigenous plant, and therefore requires high maintenance...not a good idea. I much prefer the trees and shrubs they are putting in instead.
trees and shrubs on the Queensway ROW...17.5 billion dollars for rail expansion...Transit City....sigh...two years in Malaysia and Im missing out on seeing so many of these changes as they happen.

I agree, KGB, trees and shrubs are better than turf...

pictures, please

Cheers, m
allurban no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 03:07 PM   #211
WotaN
in omnia paratus
 
WotaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wroclaw - Vratislavia
Posts: 3,996
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post

P.S. What's the difference between trams and trolleys?
It very much depends on English-speaking region. In some places trolley is understood as a tram (streetcar, tramway, light city rail,...) with pole collector instead of pantograph. But normally I'd refer to trolley as trolley-bus, like in Homer J.Simpson's answer.
WotaN no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 04:22 PM   #212
invincible
Lurker
 
invincible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,804
Likes (Received): 523

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
I agree..it is an area of concern, and anything that can be implimented to address safety should be looked at. Platforms aren't much good, as the problem with some routes are the lack of space for anything.
There was a trial here of a sort of stop which could work in restricted places, which I can't describe very well, but the government press release can:

‘Known as a Kerb Access Stop, the new design is based upon extending a section of the footpath area forward to meet the tram, similar in principle to that of pedestrian crossings in some shopping strips.

“This new design concept allows passengers to move between the footpath and the tram, at the same level, without having to cross in front of vehicles.”

Motor traffic will merge into one lane and will share the tram track area with the tram past the tram stop. Traffic can again form two lanes away from the tram stop.





Quote:
Definetely they should blitz streetcar routes and fine the hell out of motorists that vilolate all regulations....illegal left-hand turns, passing when the streetcar is stopped (perhaps a plate-catching camera operated by the streetcar operator). It should be treated like they do school buses now...serious fines and loss of licenses for violations.
I don't know what the situation is like in Toronto, but any attempt to use cameras for anything makes people complain that the government is actually just introducing them to raise revenue. That said, I believe a small number of trams do have cameras installed.
invincible no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 22nd, 2007, 09:38 PM   #213
elkram
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 337
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Well, I've never underestimated Montreal's knack for poor municipal decisions.
Right, we here are the municipality of the two places . . . e.g., (and you really needn't get me roling here ) why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

If you actually understood natures of civic politics, then you'd understand how come the charming city here has come to be all that it is.

One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient), it's true . . . all while your community's perplexingly () creepy.
elkram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2007, 12:29 AM   #214
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

Your whole post has become rather confusing, but I'll take a stab and assume you are talking about Expo/Olympics? That one's prety easy....first of all, it was what...400 years ago? Secondly, we all know it works politically here in Canada....Toronto gets handicapped when it comes to who gets what (essentially, we get sent the cheque).

Otherwise, Toronto doesn't play second fiddle to Montreal in anything, except maybe having french Canadians.

My comment was a light-hearted stab at the whole white-elephant/Drapeau-ishness of the city...I mean, the city has never excactly been brilliantly run, and has always been the poverty/welfre city of Canada sort of thing. That's what makes it "charming".




Quote:
One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient)

Then your perception is really off the mark....perhaps you are simply refering to what the ROC "thinks" we think...not what we actually think (as in, we've never considered ourselves the COTU...this is imagined by the ROC). If you really understood how it works here, you would know that we are the biggest grass-is-greener club in the world, when you factor in the amount of bitching about the place vs how well we actually have it compared to other places. But you need to be here to know this.





Quote:
Known as a Kerb Access Stop, the new design is based upon extending a section of the footpath area forward to meet the tram, similar in principle to that of pedestrian crossings in some shopping strips.

“This new design concept allows passengers to move between the footpath and the tram, at the same level, without having to cross in front of vehicles.”

Motor traffic will merge into one lane and will share the tram track area with the tram past the tram stop. Traffic can again form two lanes away from the tram stop.

That's a nice idea, but wouldn't be practical here, as streetcar stops are very frequent (meaning generally every 500m or much less) Stops are at every trqaffic light or intersection, which are very frequent. Building these platforms at every intersection would cause huge bottlenecks as it would basically screw right turns. Also, by the time you built one of these at every streetcar stop, it would basically take up half the length of road, and probably bankrupt the city building so many of them.

Nope...that's definetely not a solution for Toronto's problem.




KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2007, 09:42 AM   #215
Taller, Better
Administrator
 
Taller, Better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 71,074
Likes (Received): 12280

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkram View Post
Right, we here are the municipality of the two places . . . e.g., (and you really needn't get me roling here ) why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

If you actually understood natures of civic politics, then you'd understand how come the charming city here has come to be all that it is.

One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient), it's true . . . all while your community's perplexingly () creepy.
"why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?"

Oh please.... I am going to assume that you are about 80, and referring to things that happened in the good old days of Expo 67.. a kind of Gloria Swanson without the charm, because it is just too sad to think of you living in a fantasy world. But it is fun trying to wade through your Babelfish-like epistles!!
__________________
'Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood."
-architect Daniel Burnman

Last edited by Taller, Better; June 23rd, 2007 at 09:25 PM.
Taller, Better no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2007, 04:23 PM   #216
MelbourneCity
Registered User
 
MelbourneCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,577
Likes (Received): 25

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
That's a nice idea, but wouldn't be practical here, as streetcar stops are very frequent (meaning generally every 500m or much less) Stops are at every trqaffic light or intersection, which are very frequent. Building these platforms at every intersection would cause huge bottlenecks as it would basically screw right turns. Also, by the time you built one of these at every streetcar stop, it would basically take up half the length of road, and probably bankrupt the city building so many of them.

Nope...that's definetely not a solution for Toronto's problem.

KGB
In Melbourne, where that photo is from, tram stops here on most routes are often 200m or less apart. Infact, some are even just on opposite sides of a set of traffic lights.
As part of disability compliance, they are moving to build platforms where trams have right of way.
The photo above is from a new extension which features 2 kerbside access stops. The road it is on is not the busiest in the city.
In the crowded inner city, platforms have been built through the resumption of one lane of traffic for a short distance. The process has also involved the removal of some stops, so every 2 city blocks now (usually) has 1 stop - about a 50% reduction on most streets.

In Melbourne we've got the Hook turn. You turn right from the left lane.
What you do is enter the intersection, then wait for the through traffic to clear, or for the lights to turn orange/amber then you proceed. It works quite well, and is to be expanded city wide.

Obviously Toronto drives on the other side of the road, so it would be a left turn from the right lane.
__________________
Vires Acquirit Eundo

Melburnian in Sydney via Bendigo
MelbourneCity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2007, 05:17 AM   #217
KGB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: TO
Posts: 5,767
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
In the crowded inner city, platforms have been built through the resumption of one lane of traffic for a short distance. The process has also involved the removal of some stops, so every 2 city blocks now (usually) has 1 stop - about a 50% reduction on most streets.
The pic shows a street that has nothing to do with downtown Toronto, which is very congested, very dense, and not wide enough to do any of that. Streetcar service in Toronto is geared towards the travel patterns of Torontonians....removing stops would have such a negative effect here, it would almost certainly never be implimented.


Here's a pic of King St east of the financial district (all the cars are parked on the curb lane)....notice the sign above the streetcar tracks...the middle lanes are supposed to be a barrier-free ROW for just streetcars and taxis between the hours of 7AM & 9AM, and 4PM & 6PM, with no parking allowed on the street during those times. Nobody ever pays attention to this...and is prohibitive to enforce (they tried it once and worked for like a week only).





Here's a pic of King & University, in the Financial District. Removing on lane and putting in a barrier would mean one lane for traffic, which would be way too restricted for the sheer number of cars that travel in this incredibly dense area ( over 100,000 people work in this few small blocks). And of course, it would permanently illiminated all street parking...that would go over like a lead baloon...not to mention not having taxis lined up out front of all the office towers would not be popular either.




Persoanlly, i say take the leap and screw the cars....give transit on downtown King the right of way. At least that way somebody would win, cause right now, everybody loses. Besides, there are more people on King St that are on stretcars during peak periods than are in cars...majority rule.







KGB
KGB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2007, 02:55 PM   #218
MelbourneCity
Registered User
 
MelbourneCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,577
Likes (Received): 25

Those pics really aren't that different to what we have in Melbourne.
I'm going in to the CBD later this week, I'll get you some pictures.

Many people have said the improvements could not be done here - but they are being done, and they're not having a negative effect - public transport patronage is up 9% this year!
__________________
Vires Acquirit Eundo

Melburnian in Sydney via Bendigo
MelbourneCity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2007, 03:13 PM   #219
Taller, Better
Administrator
 
Taller, Better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 71,074
Likes (Received): 12280

It is up here dramatically, too. They introduced a transferable monthly metropass.. anyone can use your pass, and ridership instantly sky-rocketed.
__________________
'Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood."
-architect Daniel Burnman
Taller, Better no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2007, 03:25 PM   #220
Roch5220
My dog rules
 
Roch5220's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Toronto, NYC
Posts: 1,663
Likes (Received): 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbourneCity View Post
Those pics really aren't that different to what we have in Melbourne. !
I like Melbourne's tram stops a lot better.
Roch5220 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium