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Old June 27th, 2007, 08:26 AM   #221
Electrify
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KGB, I'm not sure if making King a streetcar ROW would be a good idea. It has the heaviest traffic on the surface of any street in downtown, both in terms of cars and transit riders/streetcars. By making it transit only, you'll just push all those cars on to other nearby roads and they will overcrowd more than they already are. So instead of having one road at 500% capacity, you'll have a dozen or so (why anyone drives downtown when you have excellent subway and commuter services is beyond me btw).

A lot of this could have been solved if Toronto built the Queen subway over the Bloor one. While Queen has always bypassed "downtown" in a way, it had always been the main east-west route for the city. If they had built it, I think we would have seen an expanded business district to the north and to the west and east with Queen being at the heart of it rather than King.

But alas, that was then and this is now. While there is definitely an argument for a Queen subway, especially with it being in proximity of the business district and closer to some fantastic tourist and commercial establishments (Chinatown, Queen West, City Hall, Eaton's Center, Downtown Yonge, etc), right now King is at the heart of Toronto's economy and has much higher demand and priority for enhanced transit. I think an underground people mover along King between Yonge and University, with a stop between York and Bay would be the best, and most affordable solution. It would be such a small route, you wouldn't even need a second rail. Once it reached the end of the route, it would simply reverse. It could be run automatically, and make a round trip from Yonge to University and back in less than 2-3 minutes.

Streetcars would still run of course, especially since this thing would not run beyond the business district. But you would not need as many nor would they be as overcrowded along this street.
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Old June 27th, 2007, 10:59 PM   #222
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Queen does beg for a subway line. I live out in the west end and never take Queen streetcars because it takes too long to get downtown. It's usually quicker to rollerblade or walk to King and take a streetcar there.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 07:44 AM   #223
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Queen does beg for a subway line. I live out in the west end and never take Queen streetcars because it takes too long to get downtown. It's usually quicker to rollerblade or walk to King and take a streetcar there.
Well, personally the Bloor line in itself was a mistake. At the very least, it should have NEVER taken priority over Queen. While I said Queen kind of bypasses the central core of downtown, Bloor by passed the entire downtown altogether!!! If anything, it was once midtown Toronto really. While it did manage to spur some high rise development in Yorkville, it is safe to say that about 75% heading "downtown" will transfer on to the Yonge line rather than get off between Bathurst and Castle Frank. Even then, I'm sure a lot of those people take buses or streetcars south and exit between Dundas and Front.

If we could turn the clocks back about 80 years, Queen and Yonge should have had #1 priorities when it came to mass transit, and as the population grew and expanded Bloor would have been an excellent crosstown LRT route to start with.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 08:16 AM   #224
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Agreed. Queen should have come first, but the Bloor Line did expand the area many define as downtown quicker than would have happened without it. Over time, the central core from King to Bloor will densify and fill in. In many respects, downtown has grown north instead of east and west already. Office towers are still concentrated south of Queen, but perhaps that will change over the next 50 years.

Ultimately, we will probably have to build a Queen subway, then one on College, one on St.Clair, and one on Eglinton. Unfortunately, density levels only have opportunities to increase on the major east-west streets, but not between them. Between them exists predominantly 2 storey residential.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #225
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Electrify, seriously, step back and look at your own suggestion for a minute. That people-mover dink you described is the most useless piece of crap you have imagined to date. You wanna know how people get between Yonge and Uni in downtown? WALK! It's less than 5 minutes!!! Assuming I get the green lights, I can run that that distance within 1 minute! A moving walkway would be a better idea for such a short distance but I don't think that'll do anything worthwhile either.

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Agreed. Queen should have come first, but the Bloor Line did expand the area many define as downtown quicker than would have happened without it. Over time, the central core from King to Bloor will densify and fill in. In many respects, downtown has grown north instead of east and west already. Office towers are still concentrated south of Queen, but perhaps that will change over the next 50 years.

Ultimately, we will probably have to build a Queen subway, then one on College, one on St.Clair, and one on Eglinton. Unfortunately, density levels only have opportunities to increase on the major east-west streets, but not between them. Between them exists predominantly 2 storey residential.
Queen: Yes, alternatively use Richmond (westbound) and Adelaide (eastbound) as those would put the service appropriately between Queen and King.
College: No
St.Clair: No
Eglinton: Quad-tracked to include parallel express service, from Scar. Village to Square 1
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Old June 29th, 2007, 06:50 AM   #226
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Electrify, seriously, step back and look at your own suggestion for a minute. That people-mover dink you described is the most useless piece of crap you have imagined to date.


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You wanna know how people get between Yonge and Uni in downtown? WALK! It's less than 5 minutes!!! Assuming I get the green lights, I can run that that distance within 1 minute! A moving walkway would be a better idea for such a short distance but I don't think that'll do anything worthwhile either.
Walking is probably the best solution 99.9% of the time. No question there. But still, LOTS of people take it everyday for that short distance. That and on top of car traffic and King is not just backlogged, it is choked to death!!! At grade, there is no room left for improvements. Even if you widened King at the expense of the sidewalks, it would still be choked by all the traffic.

Bottom line is that at grade, there is nothing we can do. Only thing I can think of is they figure out a way to turn around the streetcar on King between Yonge and University for these people, but I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. Some kind of underground train along King through the downtown would make the most sense, or even along Richmond and Adelaide.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 07:11 AM   #227
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Underground train? I guess they can just... put a moving walkway on PATH, one of those airport ones, like the super-high speed one they now have in Pier F at Pearson. That would probably cost almost nothing and do the same thing. You seriously have the weirdest ideas.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 07:52 AM   #228
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TRZ: why do you say no to subways on St. Clair and College? At this point, with the ROW on St. Clair, it makes alot less sense, but 30 years down the road, St. Clair and College could very well have far higher densities than exist now. College already looks destined to be a wall of buildings 8 to 10 floors from one end to the other. The only thing preventing 20 to 30 from one end to the other is the 1 to 2 storey residentials to the north and south of College. These neighbourhoods will not be developed into a midrise urban landscape like Athens, London, or King West in Toronto.

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Old June 30th, 2007, 05:19 AM   #229
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I'm not sure if making King a streetcar ROW would be a good idea. It has the heaviest traffic on the surface of any street in downtown, both in terms of cars and transit riders/streetcars.

Well...that IS what makes it a good idea.



Quote:
By making it transit only, you'll just push all those cars on to other nearby roads and they will overcrowd more than they already are.

Surface traffic is/will be congested any way you shake it. But a ROW on King will mean more than half the people using King (streetcar riders) will have a major improvement. In fact, it may coax a fw more people out of their cars and on to it. I know a lot of people have abandoned King because of its overcrowiding, slowness and bunching due totally to sharing the street with cars.

The status quo is everybody loses...cars...transit.

A ROW on King will mean the majority (who also happen to be the "good guys" ) at least will win. Why should everybody suffer just because everybody can't win?



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A lot of this could have been solved if Toronto built the Queen subway over the Bloor one.

Naw....Bloor was the obvious choice for an east-west mass transit line over Queen. Ya gotta think about the bigger picture. Besides, even on simple numbers, streetcar and car traffic on Bloor was rapidly increasing and pushing the limits of streetcar capacity....the future growth of Toronto was along Bloor-Danforth...not Queen. Subways need feeder routes, and Bloor-Danforth connected downtown and the rapidly growing boroughs and it ran far north enough to catch lots of feeder routes both north and south of it.

This is not to say Queen couldn't have used one. I find Queen and Dundas streetcars much busier on weekends than during weekdays. I liked the idea of underground streetcars...at least through downtown (Trinity Park to the Don River).




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Old June 30th, 2007, 05:51 AM   #230
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Well, personally the Bloor line in itself was a mistake. At the very least, it should have NEVER taken priority over Queen.
you are so .. so ... so wrong
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 12:16 PM   #231
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hmmm...not everyone who uses the subway and LRT system can walk the distance between Yonge St. and University Ave. 5 minutes walk for you would take my dad about 20-30 minutes

TTC got rid of the moving walkway connecting the Spadina stations...due to high maintenance costs...

Bloor was chosen for the subway line because it had reached subway levels of demand. TTC was running PCC cars were in 2-car multiple-units at about 1 per minute (see transit-toronto.on.ca for more info) during peak hours...and even after Bloor-Danforth was built, the streetcars were still running hot from Keele west and Woodbine east....

Bloor and Eglinton are the two main east-west streets that run through Toronto...very important for transit service....that's why the Transit City plan has chosen Eglinton and not Queen...

Queen has never had that high level of demand and it seems that passenger use has been declining in recent years...maybe that's why there is another interesting proposal for King aside from the ROW.....to move all the ALRVs to King and move the CLRVs back to Queen. Apparently the service can be made more reliable with ALRV service on King and CLRV service on Queen.

Cheers, m

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Old July 2nd, 2007, 04:27 PM   #232
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Queen has never had that high level of demand and it seems that passenger use has been declining in recent years...maybe that's why there is another interesting proposal for King aside from the ROW.....to move all the ALRVs to King and move the CLRVs back to Queen. Apparently the service can be made more reliable with ALRV service on King and CLRV service on Queen.

I agree with that. There is a big difference between Queen and King.

Queen has always been a major retail strip, that really takes advantage of the kind of service streetcars were intended...inter-neighbourhood transit with frequent stops...perfect for shopping. Queen is also a residential service, but the residential areas around it is less dense...it's generally all old victorian houses within walking distance of Queen....not much of the massive clusters found in other areas. Queen is also a very long route...it brings service to far out eastern and western neighbourhoods. It's also a street which gets heavy usage at night, making it a good choice for all-night service.

King is very different. First of all, it has been changing very drastically...the section between Dufferin and University used to be dead in terms of passenger loading and unloading...now it is the busiest, and has not even begun to reach it's peak, as massive amounts of condos are still yet to be built and occupied...most of the people who move into them will use this service. Of course, a lot of them won't if things aren't changed. Unlike Queen, King is not much of a retail street.

I like the idea of switching streetcars on the streets, but I'd like to make a further suggestion.....King is busiest on weekdays, and Queen is busiest on weekends....I say use the ALRVs on King during the week and move them to Queen on the weekends (Spadina could also use those ALRVs as well).

Hopefully, some kind of ROW setup on King will be implimented on King, along with delivery of the new LRT train sets, which will having us happily zipping along in our red rockets once again.




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Old July 3rd, 2007, 05:32 PM   #233
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TRZ: why do you say no to subways on St. Clair and College? At this point, with the ROW on St. Clair, it makes alot less sense, but 30 years down the road, St. Clair and College could very well have far higher densities than exist now. College already looks destined to be a wall of buildings 8 to 10 floors from one end to the other. The only thing preventing 20 to 30 from one end to the other is the 1 to 2 storey residentials to the north and south of College. These neighbourhoods will not be developed into a midrise urban landscape like Athens, London, or King West in Toronto.
Because St. Clair is too close to Eglinton to justify a subway along both. College is too close to both Queen and/or Bloor to justify a subway along it as well. If College is flanked to the north and south by subway lines, College will be just fine, but consider it for surface improvements west of the Don.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM   #234
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Any cross-town subways would be best placed north of Bloor...Eglinton and Steeles. But what Toronto needs more, are north-south subways in the eastern and western quadrants of the city.




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Old July 4th, 2007, 02:41 AM   #235
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Here's a question that I've always wondered.
Before the Yonge line, was there a streetcar going up Yonge or just a regular bus?
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Old July 4th, 2007, 02:45 AM   #236
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Because St. Clair is too close to Eglinton to justify a subway along both. College is too close to both Queen and/or Bloor to justify a subway along it as well. If College is flanked to the north and south by subway lines, College will be just fine, but consider it for surface improvements west of the Don.
I disagree -- that central area desparately needs another line to shunt out all those workers by flushing them back to the 'burbs for the night -- Yonge/Bloor junction's an accident waiting to happen, it always gave me the creeps changing at least twice daily there -- I say bring on! those Queen and College trains, and pitch the streetcars toward someplace else for good (ever!).
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Old July 4th, 2007, 06:33 AM   #237
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Here's a question that I've always wondered.
Before the Yonge line, was there a streetcar going up Yonge or just a regular bus?
OH yeah, Yonge had streetcars, it was pretty crazy volume too, check out the history page on the TTC's website, they have an old photo of the streetcar city known as Yonge before the 1950s. It used to be believed that streetcars were the main cause of congestion.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 07:39 AM   #238
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OH yeah, Yonge had streetcars, it was pretty crazy volume too, check out the history page on the TTC's website, they have an old photo of the streetcar city known as Yonge before the 1950s. It used to be believed that streetcars were the main cause of congestion.
I also believe it was a TTC bus that extended past Eglinton and up to what is now the Richmond Heights plaza just north of downtown Richmond Hill. It wasn't until the mid 90s when they extended the route north about a kilometer to Bernard Ave. Even with the Viva now, local Yonge buses still terminate at Bernard Ave.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 01:48 AM   #239
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Here's a pic of King St east of the financial district (all the cars are parked on the curb lane)....notice the sign above the streetcar tracks...the middle lanes are supposed to be a barrier-free ROW for just streetcars and taxis between the hours of 7AM & 9AM, and 4PM & 6PM, with no parking allowed on the street during those times. Nobody ever pays attention to this...and is prohibitive to enforce (they tried it once and worked for like a week only).





Persoanlly, i say take the leap and screw the cars....give transit on downtown King the right of way. At least that way somebody would win, cause right now, everybody loses. Besides, there are more people on King St that are on stretcars during peak periods than are in cars...majority rule.

KGB
When I looked at this ... internally, at least, I scatched my head. It looks exactly like Collins st. Melbourne ...



except the cars are on the wrong side of the road, and there should be a tram or two on the tracks.

I hunted around for an image that more closely represented what I (amongst others!) felt here, but that's the best I could find quickly. We do have that sort of architecture in this street ..



Hmmm.

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Old July 5th, 2007, 05:27 AM   #240
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When I looked at this ... internally, at least, I scatched my head. It looks exactly like Collins st. Melbourne ...except the cars are on the wrong side of the road, and there should be a tram or two on the tracks.

Are you talking about the street itself, or the street "scape" ?

The big difference i see in terms of the street setup, is that Collins has two lanes on either side of the streetcar tracks, while King has only one....this is why a dedicated ROW for King is such a bitch.

As for the "missing" streetcars...there is one coming (over the left shoulder of the cyclyst...with the single headlight), and one had just passed before I snapped the pick. This would be on a weekend, but don't make quick assumptions about frequencies on King...on peak rush hours, the King car runs on two-minute headways...that's unbelieveably high frequency for any LRT vehicle...especially one running in mixed traffic tio boot. hell, even our subways only run on 2 minute and 30 second headways.




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