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Old August 2nd, 2010, 11:41 AM   #461
hkskyline
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Just how is LRT better than buses? They have to follw traffic signals and doesn't carry a lot of people and is not that much faster than buses. I don't see any benefits of trams but then again I am a new yorker so never took trams that much.
Buses would get stuck in traffic above ground. I believe parts of the Eglinton line would be below-ground, and even when running on the surface, they should have right-of-way vs. buses need to weave through lanes of other traffic.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 08:09 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
THE POP is only on the TC lines and not the legacy lines or am I misinformed?
It's in use on the 501 Queen legacy line I believe; the others don't use it.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 11:55 PM   #463
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Buses would get stuck in traffic above ground. I believe parts of the Eglinton line would be below-ground, and even when running on the surface, they should have right-of-way vs. buses need to weave through lanes of other traffic.
Ever heard of rapid bus transit? They have their own right of way.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 02:56 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKorean View Post
Just how is LRT better than buses? They have to follw traffic signals and doesn't carry a lot of people and is not that much faster than buses. I don't see any benefits of trams but then again I am a new yorker so never took trams that much.
Have you been across the River , NJ is building a Light Rail network connecting all of our cities. Light Rail rarely stops at lights and is grade separated for the most part.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 08:37 AM   #465
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Ever heard of rapid bus transit? They have their own right of way.
The Eglinton route was supposed to be a subway, but the project was mothballed years ago even after some tunnels were built. BRT would still occupy lanes on the surface, while the current LRT solution would not impede traffic in some sections and would still allow street-level parking, which I recall does exist along this street.

Street-level separation LRT, built in a way similar to BRT (separation at-grade), did happen recently on St. Clair, the next big E-W street further south, amidst lots of local opposition during the construction phase and on the long-term effects. There was a lot of noise from local retailers who feared patrons could no longer park next to their stores right on the street. That project took quite a while to finish, and it just opened recently.

No, BRT is not necessarily a solution that always works. LRT can eventually be upgraded into a subway-like service, carrying far more passengers than BRT. I personally think BRT is only a band-aid temporary solution while heavy rail is too expensive and takes too long to build.

We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 11:22 AM   #466
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Have you been across the River , NJ is building a Light Rail network connecting all of our cities. Light Rail rarely stops at lights and is grade separated for the most part.
NJT heavy rail connects all the cities doesnt it?

And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 11:25 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The Eglinton route was supposed to be a subway, but the project was mothballed years ago even after some tunnels were built. BRT would still occupy lanes on the surface, while the current LRT solution would not impede traffic in some sections and would still allow street-level parking, which I recall does exist along this street.

Street-level separation LRT, built in a way similar to BRT (separation at-grade), did happen recently on St. Clair, the next big E-W street further south, amidst lots of local opposition during the construction phase and on the long-term effects. There was a lot of noise from local retailers who feared patrons could no longer park next to their stores right on the street. That project took quite a while to finish, and it just opened recently.

No, BRT is not necessarily a solution that always works. LRT can eventually be upgraded into a subway-like service, carrying far more passengers than BRT. I personally think BRT is only a band-aid temporary solution while heavy rail is too expensive and takes too long to build.

We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.
Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 11:43 AM   #468
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And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.
What limits the speed of LRTs is simply how it is designed. They can be just as fast as heavy rail, or slower than buses.
  1. The only thing that really prevents LRTs from operating at maximum speeds at 90 kph, aside from the vehicle maximum design speed, are the city road speed limits. That being said, if the LRT is elevated, underground, or fully segregated at-grade from traffic and pedestrians, LRTs can go just as fast as heavy rail. It just depends on design.
  2. Distances between stops: large distance between stops = faster, smaller distance between stops = slower. It isn't rocket science. All depends on design.
  3. While buses seem cheaper to operate, they do not provide the capacity or the potential for capacity as much as LRTs. I guess you can say, just refer to Curitiba's BRT system, where buses come constantly in order to achieve a higher capacity, but that isn't cheap to operate either. LRT vehicles can hold more people and can be longer depending on how it is designed.
  4. Generally, "rail" has a better perception and can generate more passengers. I guess this can definitely be debatable.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 01:01 PM   #469
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NJT heavy rail connects all the cities doesnt it?

And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.
Erm , The Hudson Bergen system is fast and slow. Its a streetcar in Downtown Jersey City and is limited to 30mph. But it runs on abandoned Freight Tracks so the rest of the system is quiet fast. Max 55mph. The Main line of the Newark system isn't slow , its grade separated. Light Rail has a higher capacity then buses , you may not like it because ur used to subways. Regional Rail connects all NJ cities but we needed a second system.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 05:55 PM   #470
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Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.
But trams can be coupled to offer more capacity, still enjoying their right-of-way without impeding traffic. Contrast that to adding buses, which will increase congestion.

For the Eglinton line, part of the LRT route will be in dedicated underground tunnels.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 06:02 PM   #471
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Basically, a bus is the right tool for transporting 0-3,000 passangers hourly. If you have 3-6,000 passangers, the right tool is a tram (or streetcar, only the name is different), between 6-12,000 an LRT, above 12,000 a subway or some similar rapid transit.
It is the basic idea but usually a transport line has different amount of passangers in different sections of the line but is not really effective to force people to change to a bus for the last two stops even if there is only 1,000 passanger there; and if you have a network of trams it can be more effective to build a new tram line even for less than 3,000 passangers, etc.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 06:36 PM   #472
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THE POP is only on the TC lines and not the legacy lines or am I misinformed?
POP will be implemented on the legacy lines too. The new streetcars will be all door boarding and the drivers will not be collecting fares. Fare Vending Machines will be installed at the busiest intersections, and there will be on-board TVM's.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 06:41 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKorean View Post
Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.
America's first "subway" is actually a tram tunnel network to relieve the severe overcrowding, and congestion on the surface. It is in Boston, and is still in use today as the MBTA Green Line, if you want to check it out. It was built in 1897.
The Yonge Subway was built to alleviate the severe overcrowding on the streetcar, ditto with the Bloor-Danforth subway. Another proposal was to route the Queen Streetcar into a tunnel under Queen St, but this was abandoned in favour of the B-D subway.

Quote:
We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.
Eglinton is only narrow where the tunnel is being built. There is more than enough clearance for a ROW on the surface sections of the Eglinton LRT.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...35.67,,0,16.74

Just an example of where the surface LRT will run. Many Transit City lines will be running on wide suburban roads.
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Last edited by JustinB; August 3rd, 2010 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Additional comments.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #474
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All the suburban lines will stop every 2 to 3 blocks for "RAPID TRANSIT". If it stopped only average ever km with no stops between via underpasses then it would be worth it but this is just a streetcar.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 12:42 AM   #475
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People in between will have to walk further to stops increasing dwell times. You're not going to get any time savings, if you have a lot of people boarding at the few stops.

The average dwell time for a stop is around 20 seconds. The average stop spacing was modeled, and determined to be the best compromise. Not to mention the TC stop spacing is going to be DOUBLE the current bus route spacing. So.... rROW, with further stops means significantly faster service aka. Rapid Transit. You definition of Rapid Transit is terrible, and will deter riders.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 09:34 AM   #476
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America's first "subway" is actually a tram tunnel network to relieve the severe overcrowding, and congestion on the surface. It is in Boston, and is still in use today as the MBTA Green Line, if you want to check it out. It was built in 1897.
The Yonge Subway was built to alleviate the severe overcrowding on the streetcar, ditto with the Bloor-Danforth subway. Another proposal was to route the Queen Streetcar into a tunnel under Queen St, but this was abandoned in favour of the B-D subway.



Eglinton is only narrow where the tunnel is being built. There is more than enough clearance for a ROW on the surface sections of the Eglinton LRT.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...35.67,,0,16.74

Just an example of where the surface LRT will run. Many Transit City lines will be running on wide suburban roads.
I have been to Boston and I took the Green Line. Green Line is a tram line, although majority is underground.
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Old August 7th, 2010, 12:57 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post


bang your head with this fact.... busses bunch too.

bunching is not the result of the transit vehicles, but the traffic that it has to travel in.

If anything, busses would experience more bunching problems than streetcars as they have to park longer at stops to merge back into the moving lane, thus, allowing the next bus more time to catch up.


Queen St. need a subway though. Anybody got 10 billion dollars?
subway trains bunch too...and the only traffic they have to deal with is other trains...oh and passengers embarking & disembarking.

Cheers, m
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Old December 16th, 2010, 09:29 AM   #478
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Eglinton residents afraid of another rapid transit loss
Ford's cancellation of Transit City light rail plan has businesses and commuters worried
14 December 2010
The Toronto Star

They were disappointed when former Premier Mike Harris cancelled their subway in favour of one on Sheppard.

Now, with a new mayor in charge, residents and businesses along Eglinton Ave. once again fear for the future of rapid transit in their neighbourhoods. They are writing letters and holding meetings as a way to fend off another broken promise.

"As a community that's already been toyed with, I can tell you people in those neighbourhoods are very concerned they may get squeezed out again," said Adam Chaleff-Freudenthaler, who has been canvassing Eglinton area residents on the issue.

Mayor Rob Ford announced the suspension of the Transit City light rail plan two weeks ago because he doesn't want any more street-level rail built in Toronto. Even though it's supposed to run underground between Leslie and Keele St. and, therefore, might fit with Ford's plans, Eglinton is in limbo.

Soil testing continues there while the TTC develops an alternative to the Transit City plan, but it's too soon to say what will become of the Eglinton LRT, according to the TTC.

Some fear the mayor may have to negotiate funds away from Eglinton to deliver on his promise to build a subway on Sheppard Ave.

The province has said it's willing to talk but it doesn't have a penny more than the $8.1 billion it has promised for four Transit City lines on Eglinton, Sheppard, the Scarborough RT and Finch.

"If you calculate the cost of a subway on Sheppard, (the Ford administration) is short in a very big way," said Chaleff-Freudenthaler.

"We're getting mixed signals," said Nick Alampi of the York-Eglinton Business Improvement Area. He says Eglinton needs the development that rapid transit would bring.

"This has to happen; this community needs it, the whole city needs it," he said.

"This project has been delayed and put off enough times that it's cost us dearly both financially and from a quality-of-life perspective," said Vanessa Mariga, who lives and works near Eglinton Ave. and belongs to the 5 Points Community Action coalition, in the Oakwood Village area near Allen Rd.

She stopped taking the TTC two years ago because it took too long by bus to get from her home to her job near Wynford Drive and Eglinton.

Based on estimates that LRT would be 17 minutes faster than buses in the tunnelled section, Mariga said, "from an environmental standpoint, when this line gets built, I'll park my car."

Even though his constituents are nervous, Councillor Josh Colle (Ward 15, Eglinton-Lawrence) said he's optimistic the LRT will go ahead, given that Ford seems to be softening his stance to include underground light rail.

The station spacing and speed of light rail on Eglinton would be similar to subways, he said. The only real difference is that light rail would run in a three-car configuration, where subways run with six to accommodate more people.

That's something Eglinton doesn't need, said Colle's father, Mike Colle, MPP for Eglinton-Lawrence, who is organizing a public information meeting Tuesday from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. at Forest Hill United Church, 2 Wembley Rd.

"If you want full-blown subways, you have to have massive densities that make them viable," said Colle. "From all the ridership and expert analysis, Eglinton has been the No. 1 supported project from transit experts back to the 1970s, the one that stacks up against all of them."
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Old December 16th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #479
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When are the new trams coming? The current ones are ugly
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Old January 21st, 2011, 08:16 PM   #480
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Poll finds support for buried LRT
Toronto Star
January 20, 2011

Underground light rail could be the compromise between Torontonians like Mayor Rob Ford, who support building more subways, and those who back the TTC’s Transit City light rail plan.

An independent poll of 550 Torontonians found the city is almost evenly divided among those who support the two forms of transit.

Forty-four per cent prefer subways to light rail, compared with 40 per cent who support building less-expensive LRT.

But when asked to choose between keeping the light rail lines and building them underground or stopping the light rail and building subways instead, an overwhelming majority supported light rail.

Only 15 per cent said they would prefer the light rail plan be stopped altogether in favour of building subways. But 32 per cent supported keeping the original light rail plan.

The poll, by Leger Marketing, was conducted online on Jan. 12 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 per cent.

“There’s a general concern that light rail transit is going to affect congestion,… if we can improve congestion by putting (it) underground, that’s going to make people happier about it,” said Leger executive vice-president Dave Scholz.

Among those who support moving light rail underground or building subways instead of LRT, 43 per cent of respondents said they chose those options to avoid traffic disruption.

Sixty-three per cent of underground transit supporters cited road congestion as the reason.

The poll also suggested that Ford needn’t be bound by his subway election platform. Only 26 per cent of those surveyed said “we should build subways because it’s what Rob Ford promised in the election, and he has a mandate, even if it means stopping the projects now underway.”

But 89 per cent said that “smart transit planning is done for the long term and should not be changed every time a new government is elected.”

While the compromise of underground LRT might help Metrolinx and the TTC plan for a system that would satisfy the new mayor’s determination to reserve road space for cars, it probably wouldn’t save much money.

Above-ground LRT costs about a third of subways per kilometer, but most of the difference is the expense of tunneling. If the light rail moved underground, it would be more expensive.

The Toronto Environmental Alliance says the poll proves that Torontonians would still support the cheaper option of light rail if they understood that it would reduce traffic congestion instead of contributing to gridlock.

“If people had a better understanding of the proposed LRT network they would realize it’ll reduce traffic congestion, not increase it,” said TEA executive director Franz Hartmann. “There will be as many lanes of road, and a bigger network means people keep their cars at home, which reduces traffic.”
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