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Old July 4th, 2017, 11:48 AM   #1981
soren5en
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Dresden. Johannstadt

Eliasplatz





Bönischplatz



Pfotenhauerstraße



Johannstädter Krankenhaus





Feldherrenplatz















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Old July 4th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #1982
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Köln
























DF / Bildindex
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Old July 4th, 2017, 02:07 PM   #1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
gjone2, keepthepast, et al. You are joking, aren't you? Bombing residential districts never was justified, and has never been anything else than a severe war crime! You may bomb industrial areas, barracks, or even transportation facilities, but never ever area bombings on residential districts of cities, certainly not cities where you have no troops fighting. There will never be any justification for this unprecedented war crime, and it's not even worth discussing about any legitimacy of that.
Except that a lot of people continue to deny that there was any justification in bombing Dresden whatsoever, due to its supposed lack of industry. This is a myth. Dresden was the 8th largest city in the Reich and the 7th largest in Germany proper – of course it had industry. It merely used its high cultural standing to mask this inherent reality. This narrative was later perpetuatated by the Soviet Union and the GDR because it suited them to further antagonise America and the West.

But, as I said, the ferocity of the bombing and the purposeful, carefully calculated creation of a firestorm cannot be justified. The bombing that actually unfolded was massively disproportionate and only furthered the campaign of 'terror bombing'. In the 1953 report issued by the USAAF, they list the Albertstadt military barracks as a target, despite the fact it wasn't attacked and was in fact more than 2km from the initial bombing site. Similarly, the report mentions suspicious 'hutted camps' – as it turns out, these housed refugees. No railway stations were on the British target maps, nor were the bridges, such as the railway bridge spanning the Elbe River. The important Autobahn bridge to the West of the city was also not mentioned, and the marshalling yards people often say is 'right in the middle of city' was in fact 2km away. With this in mind, the notion that Dresden was targeted because it was an important transport junction largely falls apart. Likewise, its industry wasn't targeted in any precise manner. It was bombed because it would burn.

As historian Alexander McKee says:

"The standard whitewash gambit, both British and American, is to mention that Dresden contained targets X, Y and Z, and to let the innocent reader assume that these targets were attacked, whereas in fact the bombing plan totally omitted them and thus, except for one or two mere accidents, they escaped."

McKee further asserts, "The bomber commanders were not really interested in any purely military or economic targets, which was just as well, for they knew very little about Dresden; the RAF even lacked proper maps of the city. What they were looking for was a big built up area which they could burn, and that Dresden possessed in full measure."

So to sum up, Dresden was a valid target. But the way in which the Allies chose to approach the situation was reprehensible and massively dispropiortionate. If the actual targets in the city had been attacked, Dresden would have come out of the war much, much more intact than it did and I'd argue there would be no controversy today.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #1984
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The controversy isn't only there because of all the lost cultural gems, but mainly due to all the civilian lifes lost, including thousands of war refugees, mostly women, elder people and children.
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Old July 5th, 2017, 02:47 AM   #1985
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Quote:
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The controversy isn't only there because of all the lost cultural gems, but mainly due to all the civilian lifes lost, including thousands of war refugees, mostly women, elder people and children.
A largely intact Dresden would have had far fewer casualties regardless, so the preservation of cultural artefacts and civilians lives is roughly aligned. And I'd argue that the destruction of the city's architecture and art is what caused initial unease. The British gentry that first raised questions were concerned that such a 'cultural' and 'charming' city had been destroyed – nothing of the civilian death, as sad as that is. Maybe I'm cynical.
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Old July 6th, 2017, 03:20 PM   #1986
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Are there any initiatives in Nuremberg to rectify some of the large scale architectural simplifications that occurred during the reconstruction phase? Surely what stands currently can't stick around forever, but I can imagine there might be a negative reaction to more radically modern developments (as the city still largely identifies with its rich medieval history) – so surely 'reconstructions' could be a viable option for the city.

I say 'reconstruction' tentatively because most of the work would in truth be renovations, as a lot of the rebuilding mimicked the position, form, and composition of the old buildings. A lot of great work could be done.

Despite the fact I've posted this comparison before, it really does sum up the unfortunate state of a lot of Nuremberg

Before:



Today:

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Old July 6th, 2017, 04:38 PM   #1987
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There is an 'Old Town Friends' association that, among others, is dealing with the reconstruction of the Pellerhof. The inner court is being reconstructed, they are fighting for the reconstruction of the outside as well.

To be honest, from all of five minutes of research I have the feeling that they might pick better battles. True, the Pellerhof looked beautiful before the war, but the 50s facade it has now is quite special in it's own right. Even if you don't like the style, it's not as boring as so many other houses in Nurnberg are, your example included.


Before


Now

Website of the Altstadtfruende:
http://www.altstadtfreunde-nuernberg.de/
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Old July 7th, 2017, 02:08 AM   #1988
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You are right that the 50s facade isn't that bad, but I can see their reasoning for wanting to reconstruct the original, especially if the courtyard is already being done. The first Pellerhaus is beautiful and eye catching, and might encourage more work of the same vein.

Just out of interest, do you know why the plot to its left is still vacant? Has it just never been built on following the destruction of the War?

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Old July 8th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #1989
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Köln




Hohenzollernbrücke







Deutz. Rheinisches Museum



Messeturm



Kölnmesse





Messeplatz



Bahnhof Köln-Deutz



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Bildarchiv Köln
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Old July 8th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #1990
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Köln






Bahnhofsvorplatz







Hauptbahnhof





Bildindex
Bildarchiv Köln
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Old July 8th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #1991
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One question:

How the hell did people back then had the money to build and invest in such beautiful structures, facades and details why nowadays everybody says there is not enough money for such things
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Old July 8th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #1992
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Köln




Domkloster









Dom-Hotel



Frankenplatz





Bildarchiv Köln
Deutsche Fotothek
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Old July 8th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #1993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValterPravnik View Post
One question:

How the hell did people back then had the money to build and invest in such beautiful structures, facades and details why nowadays everybody says there is not enough money for such things
Because handcraft and natural materials were, in relation to other costs, much cheaper than today.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 11:34 PM   #1994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soren5en View Post
Is always make me sad to remember that this survived the war and was demolished so the city could 'modernise'.

Today:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ValterPravnik View Post
How the hell did people back then had the money to build and invest in such beautiful structures, facades and details why nowadays everybody says there is not enough money for such things
In addition to what Saxonia said, there is also a loss of craftsmanship. If the world suddenly decided it wanted to build like this again, a new workforce would have to been trained.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 03:01 AM   #1995
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Karlsruhe:











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Old July 9th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #1996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValterPravnik View Post
One question:

How the hell did people back then had the money to build and invest in such beautiful structures, facades and details why nowadays everybody says there is not enough money for such things
In addition to labor having been much less expensive in former times, materials less expensive, and craftsmanship in rich supply, the sheer availability of work force labor 100+ years ago was a key factor. Try to put together even a small crew of skilled laborers today and it may take months.

In addition, government is FAR more involved today than previously...raising the costs of construction exponentially. Hundreds of permits, environmental studies, community issues, giving everyone a 'voice' to oppose, support or otherwise delay big projects, and more, all drive costs very, very high.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #1997
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[QUOTE=soren5en;141006875]Dresden. Johannstadt



Johannstädter




/QUOTE]

It looks as if the inner courtyards surrounded by four-sided blocks of apartments had structures build within. Were these structures commercial establishments like bakeries or butcher markets servicing the block unit?
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Old July 10th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #1998
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They were often small factories or handcraft workshops like carpenters or butchers. Low quality tenement housing was also very common in the backyards. In more affluent communities, the backyards were often filled with gardens or sporting grounds. You can still see traces of this in districts where the building substance was preserved after the war.
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Old July 12th, 2017, 07:16 PM   #1999
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This is a beautiful and also very sad thread. What I find so poignant and depressing is the fact that so much of this destruction came in the last months of the war, not in 1942-43 when it seemed that Germany might win, but literally in the last months, in some cases almost the last weeks, like the destruction of Wurzburg, or the near destruction of Erfurt that was apparently called off due to US troops taking the city ahead of schedule.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 10:59 PM   #2000
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Köln

An den Dominikanern







Hauptpostamt



Reichsbank



Unter Sachsenhausen



Zeughausstraße



Appellhofplatz



Römerbrunnen





Appellationsgericht



Bildarchiv Köln
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