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Old August 1st, 2017, 04:04 PM   #2061
qjone2
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Originally Posted by X8B View Post
So was Konigsberg, probably the only non-existent german city. After soviet sidge there was nothing left but ruins and few suburban buildings. Belive me, 2000 big guns can inflict as much damage as allied bombings.
Königsberg was already utterly ruined before the Soviets arrived.

"In 1944, Königsberg suffered heavy damage from British bombing attacks and burned for several days. The historic city centre, especially the original quarters Altstadt, Löbenicht, and Kneiphof, was destroyed, including the cathedral, the castle, all churches of the old city, the old and the new universities, and the old shipping quarters."

Wikipedia

I believe it was one of the longest roundtrips ever undertaken by the RAF in WWII. If it hadn't occurred, I maintain that a lot more of 'Königsberg' would show in present day Kaliningrad.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 04:59 PM   #2062
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I was wondering whether anyone here knows more about the bombing of Munich and the city's subsequent reconstruction.

A few years back when I visited the city I found it to be beautiful and charming; I was completely surprised to hear much later that it had been heavily bombed during the war. Was it damaged less than other large German cities? I read on wikipedia that about 90% of the old town was destroyed-does that mean that most buildings in Munich's center are reconstructions? I am also wondering if there is any good article around that explains why is it that Munich was reconstructed so much in a historical fashion as opposed to other cities...
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Old August 1st, 2017, 05:36 PM   #2063
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When I was in Wroclaw and visited the City Museum I saw fotos of a reconstruction from the 60/70's of the marked with ugly concrete buildings. Now the marked i s reconstructed as pre-war, so it must have been in 2 steps. Anyone from Wroclaw here that can verify this?



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No, Market Square was heavily shelled by powerful soviet artillery.

Proof:

https://apetcher.files.wordpress.com...aiser-1945.jpg

http://wroclaw.fotopolska.eu/28421,foto.html
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 01:35 AM   #2064
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Originally Posted by mhjo View Post
When I was in Wroclaw and visited the City Museum I saw fotos of a reconstruction from the 60/70's of the marked with ugly concrete buildings. Now the marked i s reconstructed as pre-war, so it must have been in 2 steps. Anyone from Wroclaw here that can verify this?
You're mistaking two or even three different squares. Wroclaw (Breslau) has three main squares: Rynek (Ring), Plac Solny (Salzmarkt) and Nowy Targ (Neumarkt). Both Rynek and Plac Solny were partially damaged and then reconstructed to the prewar state (mostly). Nowy Targ was less lucky and was filled with 1950/1960s commieblocks.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 04:15 AM   #2065
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Originally Posted by mhjo View Post
When I was in Wroclaw and visited the City Museum I saw fotos of a reconstruction from the 60/70's of the marked with ugly concrete buildings. Now the marked i s reconstructed as pre-war, so it must have been in 2 steps. Anyone from Wroclaw here that can verify this?
Most of the main market square was rebuilt in the 1950s/60s. I think I read that there might have been a little bit more work in the 80s, but I can't verify that (and might be confusing it with another city).

As with other formerly German cities, though, the reconstruction was not entirely faithful, and German influences were removed (though, again, I'm unsure of the extent to which this might have been rectified):

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At the turn of the 19th and 20th century, two-thirds of buildings in the middle of the square, were demolished and replaced by offices and retail establishments designed in Historicism and Modern styles.

During the World War II although much of the city was destroyed or damaged, the market did not suffer much damage. The square was restored according to the way it looked in the late 18th century, using Baroque and Classicism styles.
- Wikipedia

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Originally Posted by emperormadness View Post
I was wondering whether anyone here knows more about the bombing of Munich and the city's subsequent reconstruction.

A few years back when I visited the city I found it to be beautiful and charming; I was completely surprised to hear much later that it had been heavily bombed during the war. Was it damaged less than other large German cities? I read on wikipedia that about 90% of the old town was destroyed-does that mean that most buildings in Munich's center are reconstructions? I am also wondering if there is any good article around that explains why is it that Munich was reconstructed so much in a historical fashion as opposed to other cities...
50-60% of all buildings in Munich were destroyed, including, as you said, 90% of the old town.

The damage is Munich was more fragmentary, which means that there are always interesting beats of the old amongst the more austere 1950s and 60s architecture, which exists in full force, especially outside the centre. Even then, what was reconstructed was often simplified; it was only in the late 1990s that the New Town Hall was restored properly, after earlier simplfication of some facades.

Munich was rebuilt the way it was because city officials chose to. On the whole, the rebuilding of German cities was down to each individual city, and while the lack of funds often favoured modern architecture, there was also a desire to adapt cities to the needs of the future and do away with the old (more cars, broader roads, modern city planning etc.) Indeed, in a lot of cities, many buildings that had survived the war were torn down to either widen roads or give the city a more homogenous, modern look. I know for a fact that in Braunschweig more than 100 surviving buildings were demolished so that the main station and surrounding roads could be expanded. Things were particularly bad in Gelsenkirchen, I believe.

The extent to which a desire to be modern shaped German cities post-war is evident if you look Polish and French cities destroyed in the war (including cities that became a part of these countries), many of which reconstructed parts, if not all, of their old towns (France in particular).

Last edited by qjone2; August 2nd, 2017 at 04:51 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:03 AM   #2066
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Stuttgart:





















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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:14 AM   #2067
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 10:42 AM   #2068
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To me, what belongs to the classics are beautiful. These pictures are really beautiful.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:17 PM   #2069
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Königsberg was already utterly ruined before the Soviets arrived.

"In 1944, Königsberg suffered heavy damage from British bombing attacks and burned for several days. The historic city centre, especially the original quarters Altstadt, Löbenicht, and Kneiphof, was destroyed, including the cathedral, the castle, all churches of the old city, the old and the new universities, and the old shipping quarters."

Wikipedia

I believe it was one of the longest roundtrips ever undertaken by the RAF in WWII. If it hadn't occurred, I maintain that a lot more of 'Königsberg' would show in present day Kaliningrad.
Sadly, much of it more or less survived the bombings and was finally destroyed after the war (as in many other cities mentioned here). The Königsberg Castle is the most remarkable example (though not the only one).
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:52 PM   #2070
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Sadly, much of it more or less survived the bombings and was finally destroyed after the war (as in many other cities mentioned here). The Königsberg Castle is the most remarkable example (though not the only one).
Very little of inner Königsberg survived the initial bombing and subsequent firestorm. This includes the Royal Castle, which was (mostly) burned out before the Russians assaulted the city.



"Royal Castle after the air raids of British bombers, August 26, 1944."



"Wilhelmplatz, 1944."



If had the job of administering a city as poor and ruined as Kaliningrad, I'd probably have demolished the Castle as well, sorry to say.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 10:35 AM   #2071
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Well, as for me these pictures show quite convincingly that many buildings of Koenigsberg old town and the Castle in particular were not left in the state they couldn't be revived. Gdansk, for example, was damaged no less (not to mention Warsaw).
Here in the second picture you see that even though the interiors of the Castle were burned out the exterior walls stay all right and the main tower looks almost intact. It's very close to what the Dresden castle looked after the war but it wasn't demolished by GDR authorities, just neglected. And now it is nicely restored and rightfully considered as one of the city gems.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #2072
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Almost every building I've ever seen pictured in post-war Königsberg was little more than a crumbling, burnt out shell; these were almost never restored, because generally it would've been more cost effective to knock them down and build something else.

Gdansk was a special case, but even there the shells were usually done away with and the rebuilding started from scratch. This is why the Poles were rather effectively able to do away with Germanic architectural traits.

The best chance Königsberg would have had of restoration would be if it had become a part of Poland. Even then, though, I wouldn't be surprised if they demolished the Castle (because of the symbolism surrounding it).
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Old August 4th, 2017, 11:10 AM   #2073
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The best chance Königsberg would have had of restoration would be if it had become a part of Poland. Even then, though, I wouldn't be surprised if they demolished the Castle (because of the symbolism surrounding it).
Well, I agree, but that's another thing. We are discussing about physical possibility of the city restoration not about reasons of those who make decisions of this kind. IF they wanted to restore they COULD, that's the point.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 03:10 PM   #2074
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Too theoretical.

IF Germany wanted to restore the Altstadt of every town and city damaged in the war, they COULD probably find the funds to do so.

IF modern Russia wanted to restore the architecture of Königsberg in Kaliningrad today, again, I'm sure they COULD find the funds.

But they would never spend money doing so. Just as the Soviets were never going to spend money rebuilding Königsberg.

But agree to disagree, no use arguing needlessly
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Old August 5th, 2017, 03:31 PM   #2075
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Kiel:











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Old August 7th, 2017, 02:05 AM   #2076
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Even then, though, I wouldn't be surprised if they demolished the Castle (because of the symbolism surrounding it).
Read something about the reconstruction after the WWII of the castle in Marienburg/Malbork and other teutonic monuments not only castles but also mills, granaries, houses then write.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 07:54 AM   #2077
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A few old photos from Hannover, once one of Germany's most beautiful cities:



(People gather to watch the opening of Hannover's first electrical traffic light, 1931)









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Old August 16th, 2017, 11:02 PM   #2078
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Dresden. Innere Neustadt
























DF / Bildindex
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Old August 16th, 2017, 11:33 PM   #2079
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Dresden. Äußere / Innere Neustadt























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Old August 17th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #2080
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One of the major tragedies of the aftermath was to not restore the Kaiser Wilhelm Platz that was the grand entry to the baroque Konigstrasse.
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