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Old August 30th, 2012, 09:05 AM   #681
Karasek
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They basically removed the Prussian extension of the palace. The baroque part from Austrian times, I think it was the Spaetgen palais, still exists. The Prussian part was removed in the early 1970s, as far as I know. The reason was the alleged inferior quality of the architecture.


Hatzfeld palais (1760) was removed because it represented Prussia (one of the first buildings after the Prussian takeover, Prussian classicism, seat of the Prussian Oberpräsidium):


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Old August 30th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
Do you really think there was much difference at the end of the day?

Yes, because the destruction by a firestorm is different than the destruction caused by artillery. There is no denying that many towns in Eastern Germany and Poland were equally destroyed, but this was often caused by Russians who set the towns on fire after the fights were over.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #683
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Wyk auf Föhr, Nordfriesland

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Old August 30th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Oslo2022 View Post
But first on my list is a future reconstruction of the Tower at the former Liebichshohe
I doubt it will happen, this terrain is now private and the owner cann't even preserve current miserable status...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
Yes, because the destruction by a firestorm is different than the destruction caused by artillery. There is no denying that many towns in Eastern Germany and Poland were equally destroyed, but this was often caused by Russians who set the towns on fire after the fights were over.
I understand you are reffering to the Market Square area. Otherwise huge parts of the city like aforementioned Grunwaldzki (Kaiserstraße ?) or elegant south were destroyed by planned demolishion by German troops. First in order to build airport, second to slow down Russians who attacked from the south. Planned demolishion can be even more severe than firestorm.

Firestorms remind me good book: "The Starship and the Canoe" by Kenneth Brower. It is kind of biographic. Main character was involved in calculating the possibility of making this firestorms during WWII. Anyway as far as I remember they managed to trigger actual firestorm only in two of German cities, Dresden and Hamburg. Carpet bombing though severe, doesn't equal to firestorm. But on the other hand, I guess it is hard to distinguish post factum true firestorm from regular fire...
anyway, sorry about this OT

Last edited by jwojcie; August 30th, 2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
So, how would German Breslau look today? I think in the old town it would be more or less the same. Less reconstructions, but also less destructions. Cathedral island would look much worse. The quarters from the 19th century probably marginally better (especially after the revitalisations since 1989). The main difference would be the cultural heritage. The cemeteries would still exist, the museums wouldn't be empty, and the public sphere wouldn't be so unhistoric.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but I highlighted one thing that I'm not certainly sure about. I'm not from Breslau/Wroclaw and I've never been in this city, but AFAI there are actually few museums (http://www.wroclaw-life.com/search/l...ype_id=culture, http://www.inyourpocket.com/poland/w...olineum_55086v) full of artifacts from Lwow (now Lviv, Ukraine) or other cities from Kresy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy), Polish lost territories after WW2.
And what about the Old Square? I suppose it would have been more modern.

Something like:


Rather than:

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 30th, 2012 at 04:40 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #686
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Thanks karasek for your extensive and interesting explanations about Breslau!

And I'd like to thank also the guy from Oslo for posting these old pictures!

P.S.: To my eyes pre-war Magdeburg was indeed a loss even if most of the buildings "only" were historicist. And I'd say that Stettin has a lot of potential for future development. It’s an interesting place as far as I can judge from pictures.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwojcie View Post
I understand you are reffering to the Market Square area. Otherwise huge parts of the city like aforementioned Grunwaldzki (Kaiserstraße ?) or elegant south were destroyed by planned demolishion by German troops. First in order to build airport, second to slow down Russians who attacked from the south. Planned demolishion can be even more severe than firestorm.

Firestorms remind me good book: "The Starship and the Canoe" by Kenneth Brower. It is kind of biographic. Main character was involved in calculating the possibility of making this firestorms during WWII. Anyway as far as I remember they managed to trigger actual firestorm only in two of German cities, Dresden and Hamburg. Carpet bombing though severe, doesn't equal to firestorm. But on the other hand, I guess it is hard to distinguish post factum true firestorm from regular fire...
anyway, sorry about this OT
There were at least 20 documented firestorms in Germany during WW2. And nothing is as destructive as fire, that's why the Allies researched how to spark firestorms and the Russian set captured towns on fire, despite the destructions caused by the fights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL
I agree with most of what you wrote, but I highlighted one thing that I'm not certainly sure about. I'm not from Breslau/Wroclaw and I've never been in this city, but AFAI there are actually few museums full of artifacts from Lwow (now Lviv, Ukraine) or other cities from Kresy
The Polish Commies transported at least 47 trains(!) full of works of art from Breslau/Wroclaw to Warsaw. A few artefacts from Eastern Poland (most cities, like Lviv/Lwow, kept the majority of their treasures) weren't nearly enough to fill these gaps. The museum landscape in the so called "recovered territories" is quite sad today, especially since most of the exhibits aren't shown in Warsaw anyway but stored in depots.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
The Polish Commies transported at least 47 trains(!) full of works of art from Breslau/Wroclaw to Warsaw.
Any source?

Anyway, I don't think it's even 1/1000 of what Germans destroyed or stolen during WW2:
"The total cost of Nazi theft and destruction of Polish art is estimated at 20 billion dollars, or an estimated 43% of Polish cultural heritage; over 516,000 individual art pieces were looted, including 2,800 paintings by European painters; 11,000 paintings by Polish painters; 1,400 sculptures; 75,000 manuscripts; 25,000 maps; 90,000 books, including over 20,000 printed before 1800; and hundreds of thousands of other items of artistic and historical value. Germany still has much Polish material looted during World War II."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder

Karasek, do you really think that Germans would have rebuilt Breslau/Wroclaw Old Square so nicely? I doubt it after seeing reconstructions after WW2 in East Germany...

Munich (Germany)


Dresden (Germany)


Breslau/Wroclaw (Poland)


Poznan (Poland)

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 31st, 2012 at 12:33 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
The Polish Commies transported at least 47 trains(!) full of works of art from Breslau/Wroclaw to Warsaw. A few artefacts from Eastern Poland (most cities, like Lviv/Lwow, kept the majority of their treasures) weren't nearly enough to fill these gaps. The museum landscape in the so called "recovered territories" is quite sad today, especially since most of the exhibits aren't shown in Warsaw anyway but stored in depots.

Wrocław National Museum website:

The oldest collections stem from previous German museums and certain sacral objects of Wrocław and the Lower Silesia, as well as from Lvov collections conveyed to Poland in 1946 by the then Ukrainian authorities. Subsequently new collections were created, of the Polish contemporary art for instance; those already existing were completed too. The Museum holding encompasses over 120 thousand units of virtually all domains of art, ranging over mediaeval stone and wood sculpture, painting, drawing, prints and crafts, Silesian, Polish and foreign works of art. It houses also documents of Polish culture in Silesia from 19th and 20th century, an accumulation of books art interest and of photography as well as the collection of 20th century art.


Wrocław University Library:

"Collections of the pre-war City Library and University Library were compounded into Wrocław University Library. On June 8, 1946 the mostly well-preserved collections of former City Library (352.350 vol.) were handed over to the Wrocław University Library thus creating a core of the new collection."

Ossolineum:

"After the war Lwów was incorporated into the Soviet Union. Only a part of the Ossolineum collections was transferred from Lwów to Wroclaw (ca.40%).
(...)
Ossolineum collections of the nineteenth and twentieth century books and periodicals, old books, manuscripts, prints, maps and numismatic objects comprise at present ca 1,800,000 items.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossolineum

+ National Museum in Gdańsk, Szczecin and many other institutions where collections from previous German museums are shown to visitors.



Ps. The Lost Museum

"In the sea of misery that our country encountered in the 20th century, due to war, occupation and lootings – hundreds of thousands of priceless works of art were destroyed or transported out of Poland. The faith of the majority still remains unknown.

Thanks to the commitment of the Polish government, the work and devotion of many people and institutions, successive treasures of the polish culture are recovered.

The Lost Museum Project supports these actions, with the hope that the 21st century will be the era of “Great Comebacks”.

http://muzeumutracone.pl/en/
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Old August 30th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
Yes, because the destruction by a firestorm is different than the destruction caused by artillery. There is no denying that many towns in Eastern Germany and Poland were equally destroyed, but this was often caused by Russians who set the towns on fire after the fights were over.
Did Russians set Wrocław/Breslau on fire after it was liberated?

And will you make any comment on the fact that Wrocław had been declared Festung and was to put resistance at all costs, plus, as previously mentioned, some city parts were demolished by Germans during preparation to the siege?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
The Polish Commies transported at least 47 trains(!) full of works of art from Breslau/Wroclaw to Warsaw.
I second RS_UK-PL in asking you for a source.

Besides, I've always thought that before retreating Germans had evacuated from Wrocław/Breslau all valuable artefacts, including those, which had been previously stolen from Polish museums and public/private galleries, and were transported to Germany via Lower Silesia.

Probably the most important painting still missing after the war is the 'Portrait of a Young Man' by Rafael Santi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
The museum landscape in the so called "recovered territories" is quite sad today, especially since most of the exhibits aren't shown in Warsaw anyway but stored in depots.
Source (again)?

Also, can I ask the German users here, do you know since when Wrocław/Breslau had been part of Prussia (and then Germany)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Karasek, do you really think that Germans would have rebuilt Breslau/Wroclaw Old Square so nicely? I doubt it after seeing reconstructions after WW2 in Germany...
Well, Old Square is nicely reconstructed indeed, but in fairness there are a few commieblock eyesores if you walk around the city centre. Have to say I found those quite disappointing during my first visit in Wrocław ca. 11 years ago.

Last edited by ja.centy; August 30th, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 11:12 PM   #691
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Magdeburg (90% destroyed. And no, Karasek, it contained important medieval parts and a vast Baroque avenue, probably the largest of its kind)













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Old August 30th, 2012, 11:42 PM   #692
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So sad... most of that does not exist anymore. Stupid wars!
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Old August 30th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #693
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Indeed, very sad. Hard to cope with it as a German.

München/Munich



















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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:03 AM   #694
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How lovely would it be to see those photos in colour...
Munich, despite all the WWII destruction, is still a beautiful city. Loved it when I visited.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:23 AM   #695
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:42 AM   #696
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I'm afraid that will never happen. Ulrichskirche in Magdeburg will eventually get rebuilt but that's it.

www.ulrichskirche.de
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:58 AM   #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMass View Post
I'm afraid that will never happen. Ulrichskirche in Magdeburg will eventually get rebuilt but that's it.

www.ulrichskirche.de

I know, it's a great project, this will give Magdeburg something extra
But for such big like Magdeburg, I think only rebuilding the Ulrichskirche isn't enough. I mean, look at all the commie blocks or new buildings in Magdeburg.
Why not rebuild a few houses or even quarters on or near squares in the Altstadt of Magdeburg? Why not rebuild the rows of beautiful houses along the Elbe?
I hope that Magdeburg thinks really hard (braincrashing hard) for once and says 'This is our plan for reconstruction among the Elbe' or 'Reconstruction of houses at the Breite Straße'.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 10:35 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
Also, can I ask the German users here, do you know since when Wrocław/Breslau had been part of Prussia (and then Germany)?
That’s the old (French) trick: Germany didn’t exist before 1871 so there were no German cities before that date ?!?

You know that Breslau was part of the Holy Roman Empire (later with appendix: of German Nation) since the middle ages and that it used to be a German speaking city from this time on until 1945.

But do you also know that Breslau was the heart of the Prussian-German resistance against the French in the wars of liberation? It was in this city where the Prussian King in 1813 pronounced his proclamation: An Mein Volk (To my People)

Quote:
Addressed to his subjects, Preußen und Deutsche ("Prussians and Germans" —the former term embracing several nationalities), it appealed for their support in the struggle against Napoleon.
The document is the first instance of a Prussian monarch directly addressing the public in order to justify his policies … published in the Schlesische privilegirte Zeitung on 20 March 1813. wikipedia
Here's the complete text in German: "Brandenburger, Preussen, Schlesier, Pommern, Litauer! Ihr wisst, was Ihr seit fast 7 Jahren erduldet habt ... "

Quote:
The city became the centre of the German Liberation movement against Napoleon, and the gathering place for volunteers from all over Germany, with the Iron Cross military decoration founded by Frederick William III of Prussia in early March 1813. wikipedia
Quote:
The Unification of Germany in 1871 turned Breslau into the sixth-largest city in the German Empire. Its population more than tripled to over half a million between 1860 and 1910. .... Important landmarks were inaugurated in 1910, the Kaiserbrücke (Kaiser bridge) and the Technische Hochschule (TH), which now houses the Wrocław University of Technology. In 1913, the newly-built Centennial Hall housed the "Ausstellung zur Jahrhundertfeier der Freiheitskriege", an exhibition commemorating the 100th anniversary of the historical German Wars of Liberation against Napoleon and the first award of the Iron Cross. wikipedia

Last edited by JValjean; August 31st, 2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 10:47 AM   #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Any source?
Source 1:
Marek Zybura - "Impressionen aus der Kulturlandschaft Schlesien, Band 3 - Der Umgang mit dem deutschen Kulturerbe in Schlesien nach 1945", Senfkorn, Görlitz, 2005

A Polish historian who works at the universities of Wroclaw and Opole. But I was wrong with the numbers, sorry. 28 waggons and 118 trucks in 1945, 13 waggons in 1946. After 1946 this looting was better organized and several collective points were established to transfer works of art from the former German territories to Inner Poland. Exact numbers and destinations aren't known, which was intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Anyway, I don't think it's even 1/1000 of what Germans destroyed or stolen during WW2
And I think it's more than the Nazis destroyed or have stolen in WW2. One quarter of all listed buildings in Poland for example is located in Silesia alone, and the majority of them are of high artistic value. And almost all works of art of the church interiors in Silesia are littered around the country and not in Silesia anymore.
Source: memorandum of the Polish preservationist, Biuletyn Dolnoslaski, 1986, Nr. 2, 2ff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Karasek, do you really think that Germans would have rebuilt Breslau/Wroclaw Old Square so nicely? I doubt it after seeing reconstructions after WW2 in East Germany...
Of course not, because the German Commies had to prove the supremacy of Socialism and not the Polishness of the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy
Did Russians set Wrocław/Breslau on fire after it was liberated?

And will you make any comment on the fact that Wrocław had been declared Festung and was to put resistance at all costs, plus, as previously mentioned, some city parts were demolished by Germans during preparation to the siege?
The Russians set part of the city on fire, the Germans destroyed parts of the city. But most of these parts weren't reconstructed. It's not like the entire old town of Wroclaw was reconstructed or is preserved. Maybe 1/3 of the old town is preserved, and most of it, the western part, wasn't destroyed in WW2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy
Besides, I've always thought that before retreating Germans had evacuated from Wrocław/Breslau all valuable artefacts, including those, which had been previously stolen from Polish museums and public/private galleries, and were transported to Germany via Lower Silesia.
No, works of art were usually stored in safe places like the Silesian mountains or remote villages. The collections of the German town Görlitz for example were stored in surrounding villages to the east of the Neisse river, with the consequence that more than 80% of Görlitz' heritage is now in Wroclaw and unknown depots in Poland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy
Source (again)?
Also, can I ask the German users here, do you know since when Wrocław/Breslau had been part of Prussia (and then Germany)?
Source is Zybura again, and Gregor Thums "Obce Miasto. Wrocław 1945".
And I'm not sure why you ask when Silesia became part of Prussia and the German Empire. If you want to insist that the region, and the city, somehow weren't German before you probably still believe in the Commie bollocks of the Polish city who was turned into a German one by the Prussians. In this case you were probably quite surprised to learn that the medieval shields of the town watch, who returned to Wroclaw from Warsaw some years ago, were labeled in German. That was exactly the reason why the Polish Commies emptied the museums.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 11:08 AM   #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
No, works of art were usually stored in safe places like the Silesian mountains or remote villages. The collections of the German town Görlitz for example were stored in surrounding villages to the east of the Neisse river, with the consequence that more than 80% of Görlitz' heritage is now in Wroclaw and unknown depots in Poland.
That was exactly the reason why the Polish Commies emptied the museums.
"The Soviet Union engaged in systematic looting during World War II, particularly of Germany – seeing this as reparations for damage and looting done by Germany in the Soviet Union. The Soviets also looted other occupied territories; for example, looting by Soviets was common on the territories theoretically assigned to its ally, communist Poland. Even Polish Communists were uneasy, as in 1945, the future Chairman of the Polish Council of State, Aleksander Zawadzki, worried that "raping and looting of the Soviet army would provoke a civil war." Soviet forces had engaged in plunder on the former eastern territories of Germany that were to be transferred to Poland, stripping it of anything of value."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looted_...e_Soviet_Union
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