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Old August 31st, 2012, 11:41 AM   #701
Karasek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"The Soviet Union engaged in systematic looting during World War II, particularly of Germany – seeing this as reparations for damage and looting done by Germany in the Soviet Union. The Soviets also looted other occupied territories; for example, looting by Soviets was common on the territories theoretically assigned to its ally, communist Poland. Even Polish Communists were uneasy, as in 1945, the future Chairman of the Polish Council of State, Aleksander Zawadzki, worried that "raping and looting of the Soviet army would provoke a civil war." Soviet forces had engaged in plunder on the former eastern territories of Germany that were to be transferred to Poland, stripping it of anything of value."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looted_...e_Soviet_Union
This didn't include works of art, since the intergovernmental agreement between Poland and the Soviet Union (26.3.1945) only spoke of military-related facilities, facilities and assets that were looted by the Germans before, and "German factories" on the now Polish territory. To Russians "German factories" meant almost the entire infrastructure, like railway tracks, entire plants or rolling stock. But none of my sources says anything about looted art, they "just" destroyed quite a bit.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 12:58 PM   #702
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Quote:
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This didn't include works of art, since the intergovernmental agreement between Poland and the Soviet Union (26.3.1945) only spoke of military-related facilities, facilities and assets that were looted by the Germans before, and "German factories" on the now Polish territory. To Russians "German factories" meant almost the entire infrastructure, like railway tracks, entire plants or rolling stock. But none of my sources says anything about looted art, they "just" destroyed quite a bit.
Example:
"Article traced the road to Minsk for half a million books Nazi Germany had first confiscated from its "enemies" in Western Europe and that the Soviets later captured in Silesia and took to the capital of Soviet Belorussia. Those "twice plundered" books had been gathered by the Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR), the special command force overseen by Alfred Rosenberg, and were transported to Minsk from warehouses in the Myslowitz (now Polish Myslowice) suburb of Kattowiz (now Polish Katowice) about 70 km north of the ERR Silesian research center at Ratibor."

http://www.iisg.nl/archives-and-rest...atibor-pkg.pdf

And:
"The looting of Germany by the Soviet Union was not limited to official Trophy Brigades, but included many ordinary soldiers and officials who plundered for personal reasons. At least 2.5 million artworks and 10 million books and manuscripts disappeared in the Soviet Union and later in Russia."

"Entire libraries and archives with files from all over Europe were looted and their files taken to Russia by the Soviet Trophy Brigades. The Russian State Military Archive (Rossiiskii Gosudarstvenni Voennyi Arkhiv- RGVA) still contains a large number of files of foreign origin, including papers relating to Jewish organisations."

"Berlin's Gemäldegalerie at Friedrichshain lost 441 major paintings, among them seven works by Peter Paul Rubens, three Caravaggios and three Van Dycks. The looted artworks might still be in "secret depositories ... in Moscow and St Petersburg". The Eberswalde Gold Treasures and German Merovingian Art Treasures were taken from Berlin to Soviet Russia."

And so on...

BTW, Poland has some small German art collections as well (very little left after Soviet troops looting), but is willing to exchange them for collections looted in Poland (by Germany) during WW2.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 31st, 2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:22 PM   #703
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I know, it's a great project, this will give Magdeburg something extra
But for such big like Magdeburg, I think only rebuilding the Ulrichskirche isn't enough. I mean, look at all the commie blocks or new buildings in Magdeburg.
Why not rebuild a few houses or even quarters on or near squares in the Altstadt of Magdeburg? Why not rebuild the rows of beautiful houses along the Elbe?
I hope that Magdeburg thinks really hard (braincrashing hard) for once and says 'This is our plan for reconstruction among the Elbe' or 'Reconstruction of houses at the Breite Straße'.
I completely agree with you, it would be much more interesting if some more reconstructions could go up in Magdeburg other than the church but for that, a lot of demolition would have also to occur and that makes it much more difficult. Lets hope.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:04 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Example:
"Article traced the road to Minsk for half a million books Nazi Germany had first confiscated from its "enemies" in Western Europe and that the Soviets later captured in Silesia and took to the capital of Soviet Belorussia. Those "twice plundered" books had been gathered by the Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR), the special command force overseen by Alfred Rosenberg, and were transported to Minsk from warehouses in the Myslowitz (now Polish Myslowice) suburb of Kattowiz (now Polish Katowice) about 70 km north of the ERR Silesian research center at Ratibor."

http://www.iisg.nl/archives-and-rest...atibor-pkg.pdf

And:
"The looting of Germany by the Soviet Union was not limited to official Trophy Brigades, but included many ordinary soldiers and officials who plundered for personal reasons. At least 2.5 million artworks and 10 million books and manuscripts disappeared in the Soviet Union and later in Russia."

"Entire libraries and archives with files from all over Europe were looted and their files taken to Russia by the Soviet Trophy Brigades. The Russian State Military Archive (Rossiiskii Gosudarstvenni Voennyi Arkhiv- RGVA) still contains a large number of files of foreign origin, including papers relating to Jewish organisations."

"Berlin's Gemäldegalerie at Friedrichshain lost 441 major paintings, among them seven works by Peter Paul Rubens, three Caravaggios and three Van Dycks. The looted artworks might still be in "secret depositories ... in Moscow and St Petersburg". The Eberswalde Gold Treasures and German Merovingian Art Treasures were taken from Berlin to Soviet Russia."

And so on...

I'm, not sure what you want to say, but these examples confirm what I said. The first example didn't violate the agreement between Poland and the SU because the books were looted by the Nazis before. The second example didn't happen on Polish territory, which means the agreement between Poland and the SU didn't apply.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:28 PM   #705
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I'm afraid that will never happen. Ulrichskirche in Magdeburg will eventually get rebuilt but that's it.

www.ulrichskirche.de
AFAIK the church St. Ulrich won't be rebuilt. In a plebiscite held on 20th March 2011 a large majority voted against the reconstruction!
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:48 PM   #706
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The "fight" for the reconstruction is apparently still on. Mentalities and opinions sometimes change. We just have to wait.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 02:49 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
I'm, not sure what you want to say, but these examples confirm what I said. The first example didn't violate the agreement between Poland and the SU because the books were looted by the Nazis before. The second example didn't happen on Polish territory, which means the agreement between Poland and the SU didn't apply.
When Allied bombing of Berlin intensified in 1943, Silesia was one the major areas where various German agencies evacuated for safety their own cultural treasures along with those plundered from many countries, including books and archives. Some of them had been earlier looted from Western Europe; others had been confiscated from Austria and the Balkans. Even more came from the Eastern Front, plundered by the Germans from Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic countries. Most of them fell victim or were “saved” a second time by Soviet trophy hunters, and were taken to Moscow, Minsk, or Kyiv.

More: http://socialhistory.org/sites/defau...s/silesian.pdf

More data has recently come to light about the Soviet trophy brigades operating in Silesia at the end of the war, and we can identify at least five or six major transports to Moscow from Silesia in 1945–1948.


PS. As I wrote before, Poland has some small German art collections as well (very little left after Soviet troops looting), however is willing to exchange them for collections looted from Poland by Germany during WW2 or partitions of Poland. Some major Polish art collections (e.g. paintings obtained from the Polish Vasas collection, Silesian collection of John III Sobieski and the Stanisław Augustus collection) are kept in Berlin for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem%C3%...alerie,_Berlin

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 31st, 2012 at 10:48 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 06:43 PM   #708
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The "fight" for the reconstruction is apparently still on. Mentalities and opinions sometimes change. We just have to wait.
So, they are still going to reconstruct the Ulrichskirche?
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:27 PM   #709
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Pre-war Stettin, Szczecin :

[IMG]http://oi49.************/24fh4yt.jpg[/IMG]













Here you can find plenty of old photos of this city : http://sedina.pl/galeria/

Old town and port areas were almost totally destroyed during RAF bombing, and unlike in other major polish cities, Old town wasn't reconstructed, only the most important monuments like cathedral or castle were rebuilt. Luckily XIX century quarters today look more or less the same(hovewer northern part of the downtown was quite heavily damaged).
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:30 PM   #710
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Breslau/Wroclaw Pre 1945

Altmarkt




View from the Liebichhoche tower


Cathedral of Saint Mary
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Last edited by Oslo2022; August 31st, 2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:30 PM   #711
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So, they are still going to reconstruct the Ulrichskirche?
If the current voters in that area ever come to their senses perhaps.

When one knows only mediocrity, or worse, they inevitably lose all appreciation of beauty.

Let us not forget that it has now been over 67 years since the words beauty and Magdeburg could be uttered in the same sentence without wincing.

Magdeburg long, long ago.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:36 PM   #712
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Magdeburg long, long ago.
This is a picture of MAINZ
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:49 PM   #713
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Quote:
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If the current voters in that area ever come to their senses perhaps.

When one knows only mediocrity, or worse, they inevitably lose all appreciation of beauty.

Let us not forget that it has now been over 67 years since the words beauty and Magdeburg could be uttered in the same sentence without wincing.

Magdeburg long, long ago.
Uhrm....That's the Dome of Mainz with the Rhine....
This was Magdeburg more then 70 years ago
image hosted on flickr
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:52 PM   #714
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Quote:
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Breslau/Wroclaw Pre 1945

Cathedral of Saint Mary

Glad they want to reconstruct the spires
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Old August 31st, 2012, 08:04 PM   #715
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This is a picture of MAINZ
Quote:
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Uhrm....That's the Dome of Mainz with the Rhine....
Whoops!

I grabbed that image from the German Cities Tourist Information Magdeburg History webpage.

Sorry about that.

I should have double checked the image.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 08:56 PM   #716
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Breslau - Southern and central areas

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‎1905 - 1927 Przedmieście Mikołajskie oraz Stare Miasto widziane z lotu ptaka!!


Obecny plac Legionów, dawniej Słoneczny. Widok od strony ul. Kościuszki w kierunku obecnych ulic Grabiszyńskiej i I. Pawłowa.


Kościół św. Pawła (Paulus Kirche), widok od ul. Legnickiej.


Rejon Placu Powstańców Śląskich na zdjęciu lotniczym. Widok w kierunku północno-zachodnim.


Wrocławskie wyspy na fotografii lotniczej


Rejon ulicy Zaporoskiej. Widok w kierunku północnym


Mosty Uniwersyteckie i Pomorskie oraz rejon pl. św. Macieja na zdjęciu lotniczym znad starówki w kierunku północnym
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Old September 1st, 2012, 01:53 AM   #717
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Nauen (Brandenburg




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Old September 1st, 2012, 01:59 AM   #718
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Jüterbog










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Old September 1st, 2012, 02:00 AM   #719
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Trebbin
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Old September 1st, 2012, 02:01 AM   #720
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Glindow
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