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Old December 15th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #1141
Cold Volition
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I had some down time today and I literally spent the entire day going through every page of this thread looking at all the pictures here and in some related threads as well. I just have to say that as an ultra-Europhile sympathetic to the preservation of European peoples, culture, sovereignty, and heritage that the the sad fate in regards to the thread's topic is an utter-travesty.

Pardon my ignorance but until very recently, I was under the assumption that "Reconstruction" in West Germany meant a full reconstruction of pre-war structures. I thought "modernization" referred to ideology and infrastructure (Mind you, I've not been to Germany...yet). Such a lack of consideration for the architectural beauty of German cities and the artistic heritage of Germany is an absolute travesty.

I'm indeed surprised that East Germany was as friendly to true reconstruction as it was despite the enormous loss of thousands of ever so refined structures and cities... I was most aware of the existence of beauty of pre-war German cities but never this exact amount of aesthetic accomplishment. I'm further vexed by the lack of sensitivity in the senseless demolition of often at least in tact if not unscathed monuments untouched by the effects of war. The before and after photos are heart-breaking. I can not count how many times I awed in disappointment after gazing at the gems that once stood only to immediately see what hovels replaced them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klassiker View Post
Ja.centy. You are right when pointing towards the cities bombed by the Germans. Don't however forget the 30 German cities I listed where absolute masterpieces in total composition and architectural (invested) value. Don't forget the huge losses in architectural heritage caused by Western Allied airfleets to French, Belgian, Dutch and Italian cities.
Allied bombings in France killed more than German bombings in Britain. Entire towns in Northern France, many of whom with no military significance whatsoever faced their almost destruction. The targets where none other than French civilians.... Are we all familiar with this allied war crime: Marocchinate ?
It is a terrible shame that almost all the major cities in Germany were so vehemently defiled. Germany did not deserve the punishment of being deprived of its artistic heritage and talent, and beauty ...only to be replaced by the tasteless, cold atrocities that have the nerve to call the country home...

Does anyone have any pictures of Duisburg before the war? I've seen modern photos and I'm appalled...

I googled Konigsberg and I found this article from two years ago. Anyone see it? http://www.thelocal.de/society/20101...l#.UMxJcG8YuYQ

...I honestly doubt that his plan will be realized but I like to dream...

Anyway sorry to ramble, I'm just astronomically upset. If I had the authority and funds, I would have all this fully rebuilt (and then some) immediately.
All-in-all, a very enlightening topic. Thank you all for the pictures and information. My views of pre- and post-war Germany have changed forever...
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Last edited by Cold Volition; December 15th, 2012 at 12:52 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #1142
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Different from German bombings, the British ones targeted civilians on purpose. It is called moral bombing and was first tested in India.

Considering WWII as a global conflict, it didn't started with Germany and Poland, but in China (Ishiwara).

Apart from that, the only reason this war emerged to a conflict with global dimensions, was Great Britain and France. To that time, the Reich topped out its European rivals in prosperity and economic power. The very reasons for the lost of so many lifes and unique cultural heritage was but the pursuit of control of Great Britain and France over Europe and vast parts of the world through military and economical superiority. A strategy seriously threatened through the economically and scientifically unleashed German Reich.

Last edited by Ingwaeone; December 15th, 2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #1143
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Königsberg & Duisburg

To Cold Volition: yes I have exact the same feelings and lookes over and over again to the changing urban landscape in Germany with great agony! What was left after WW2 was stil far more than the (relative few) reconstructed buildings which we now can admire. Most were never rebuilt in the original way and most were simplified especially looking at te roof structures. Most individual surviving buildings stood in the way of the cheap and short sighted rebuilding plans of most devastated cities. That almost all untouched suburbs with impressive detailed houses all lost their decoration I deem as a criminal act, since so many buildings were already lost by the war and the afthermath rebuilding plans. So around the Marienkirche in Berlin about some 50 buildings survived which all were later removed. Now there is nothing any more and all current German rebuilding plans, where some traditionalism is allowed (an exception) most buildings bear no beauty like their predecessors (examples in Dresden, Magdeburg and Berlin). NO SINGLE ordinary Gründerzeit Building was ever reconstructed!!!!!!!
Plans of the Russians for königsberg far outclass any German reconstruction attempts insofar (60 years!!). And what did the Poles for Danzig is in the same order. But in Danzig (or Breslau) no Wilhelminic or Gründerzeit hauses are reconstructed by the Poles either because the look quite German!!! Mostly the houses of the period before the Gründerzeit are taken then, like the Neumarkt in Dresden.

Of the 30 Gems I personally exluded the late industrial cities of the Ruhrgebiet (like Duisburg, Solingen, Essen, Dortmund aso) and the industrial cities in Nieder Schlesien (like Hindenburg, Gleiwitz). Most of these cities however were quite nice and possessed all impressive buildings, which all are gone nowadays (example: Main railway station in Dortmund, city hall of Essen. Bochum and Gelsenkirchen were once nice cities and Wuppertal was once quite impressive. The city hall of Elberfeldt was a gem with colonades, small guard houses at the front and a beautiful roof!!!
Like the once proud city hall of Kassel these both are robbed of their once beauty.
Dresden once also possessed a beautiful town hall of which the outer appearances are still there and the tower survived all simplification attempts. But the prewar picture was stunning!!! Until now nothing has been undertaken to reconstruct that once beautifiul fassades or litte roof turrets and roof windows.
Same stories for the Reichstag Building, the Berliner Dom, Würzburger Dom, Magdeburger Justizpalast and the Berlliner Landgericht (Littenstrasse). All attempts until now failed to return the beauty of the past.
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Last edited by Klassiker; December 15th, 2012 at 02:36 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #1144
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Glogauer Strasse in the outskirts of Grand Berlin

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Old December 15th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #1145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslo2022 View Post
If you help us regain Lwow, Grodno and the Vilnius area (where poles stand a majority), then we can begin discussing about giving Breslau, Stettin and Elbing back and help you reconcurring Konigsberg.


[IMG]http://ru.fishki.net/picsw/122009/01/bonus/fu/****_you-013.jpg[/IMG]

Lviv will never be Polish. Lviv was founded by Ruthenian (Ukrainian) King Danylo Halytskyi. Lviv is located in the ethnic Ukrainian lands. I consider the matter closed.
Solve your problems without the involvement of other countries.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #1146
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Berlin - so schön warst du damals, so hässlich bist du aber jetzt

Berlin - so beautiful you were back then, so ugly are you now though

Very interesting thread!
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
I find it a bit difficult to follow your rationale (to be able to say if I agree or not), but many thanks for your opinion anyway.
D. Willoweit. Memel-Klaipėda im historischen Bewußtsein der Deutschen und Litauer in Annaberger Annalen 1998
An extract.
Quote:
Deutsche denken, wie Engländer oder Franzosen, wenn sie ihre Geschichte betrachten, in erster Linie an die Geschichte ihres Staates … .Die Geschichte der Deutschen in Kleinpolen oder an der Wolga wird kaum ein Deutscher als Teil der deutschen Geschichte begreifen, weil diese Gebiete stets außerhalb der deutschen Grenzen lagen. Diese Fixierung auf die Grenze als Ort, an welchem die Geschichte eines Staates und zugleich Volkes beginnt und endet, ist den Litauern - so mein Eindruck - weitgehend fremd.
Change Lithuanians to Poles here and You will get the answer.
Further example. Russians, who live in Federation and a state with long history of undisturbed statehood, do not consider Daugavpils or Narva as theirs, while Poles do consider Vilnius or Grodno, although these cities were under Polish rule for just silly 17 years during the whole course of history...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslo2022 View Post
If you help us regain Lwow, Grodno and the Vilnius area (where poles stand a majority), then we can begin discussing about giving Breslau, Stettin and Elbing back and help you reconcurring Konigsberg.
And what your further proposals, based on language spoken, would follow?
I guess these:
Narva - to Russia;
Daugavpils - to Russia;
Minsk - to Russia;
Donetsk - to Russia;
Crimea peninsula - to Turkey or to Russia (these two would have to mediate);
Vienna - to Germany;
Åland Islands - to Sweden;
Flanders - to Holland;
Wallonia - to France;
Komárno - to Hungary;
Gheorgheni - to Hungary;
the whole of Croatia - to Serbia or vice-versa;
suburbs of Trieste go to Slovenia;
the whole of Moldova joins Romania;
Punskas area - goes to Lithuania, Visaginas enclave (58 km²) - to Russia; Гервяты enclave (76 km²) - to Lithuania as well as Пеляса and four nearby villages;
Some gminas in Białystok area join Belarus;
Transnistria joins Russian Federation;
Genève joins France, Zürich - Germany;
Przemyśl goes to Ukraine as based on historical arguments;
...

Am I right?

Being more seriously, yours was the single post stupid post I've ever seen. No offense...
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #1148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post

Transnistria joins Russian Federation;
Transnistria was part of the Ukrainian SSR until 1940.
census 1926
Ukrainians 277,515 (48.5%)
Moldovans 172,419 (30.1%)
Russians 48,868 (8.5%)
Jews 48,564 (8.5%)
Germans 10,739 (1.9%)
Bulgarians 6,026 (1.1%)
Poles 4,853 (0.8%)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post

Przemyśl goes to Ukraine as based on historical arguments;

Am I right?
Of course, you're right.

Seriously speaking, I believe that Europe must be united. This is the only chance to save the European culture and civilization.

Last edited by Igor L.; December 16th, 2012 at 01:44 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #1149
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Stop it people.


This thread is about prewar impressions of Germany and nothing else!


Open a skybar thread if you feel the need to discuss it.
If you continue here, there will be infractions/brigs. Thanks.
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🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #1150
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Besides Germania Magna, everything should again belong to Italy.

Bochum






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Old December 16th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #1151
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Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Duisburg before the war?

Ingwaeone: I love your pictures and collect them all!!!! Thanks for Bochum.

Bochum has (and still have) some great buildings in the city center!!
Wupertal was (ans still is) a very well built city without the factories like in Esssen, Duisburg and Dortmund. In 1900 Wuppertal (actually 2 cities: Barmen & Elberfeldt) had already 400.000 inhabitants and for them extensive Gründerzeit Viertel were built.

Essen: Land & Amtsgericht (1908-1913); Kaufhaus Allthof; Krupp: main building (Offices).
Dortmund: Hauptbahhof
Duisburg: -
Bochum: Ruhrknappschaft (1908-1910) See picture Ingwaeone!!!
Gelsenkirchen: picturesque city center hauses
Düsseldorf:St Elisabeth Kirche, St Rochus kirche, Kunstgewerbe Museum, Opernhaus, Hotel Monopol-Metropol, Königsallee (prewar buildings)
Wupertal: Stadttheater, Ruhmeshalle, Thalia Theater, Kaufhof, Gründerzeit Bauten in the city center of Elberfeldt, Rathaus Elberfeldt.

Ingwaeone: please show us how Kassel once looked from the air!!! Kassel had stunning Gründerzeit buildings (5 stories high like in Berlin). Kassel had a stunning Theatre (Kaiser.......). Kassel had a stunning townhall and many beautiful palaces in the city center. Kassel also did have a factor for tanks that doomed this true German gem.
Same is true for once great Magdeburg, which was 2 x larger than Kassel. Had impressive a very Gründerzeit Viertel: Nordfront and around Magdeburg was a very large and modern industrial area which made the city a target in the bombing campaign of the Allies. Though Magdeburg was destroyed in 1945 with heavy loss of life, almost identical to what Dresden some later experienced. The Justizpalast southwest of the city and Polizei oberdirection (next to it) were 2 huge complexes. There is nowadays little left of these magnificent complexes.

Victims of fate were the grand style buildings of the period 1900-1914 in Germany. The Ruhrknappschaft building in Bochum is such an example.
Of Germanies 100+ huge buildings of this period only a dozen survived in the great proud style they once had: Neues Rathaus Hamburg, Neues Rathaus Leipzig and Neues Rathaus Hannover are 3 of them.
The huge Verkehrsministerium in München is another of these grand buildings. Nowadays fractions are still there, but the impressive towers (as usual) are gone.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #1152
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Join the 21st century people, seriously...

But great pictures.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #1153
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Wow some amazing pictures there, how very sad that so much has been lost!

London - http://medieval-london.blogspot.co.uk/
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Old December 17th, 2012, 05:03 AM   #1154
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That argument is getting quite boring, indeed.

Schloss Glücksburg according to a 1900s photochrom. The castle was the ancestral seat of the Royal House of Denmark (and Norway).



Schloss Herrenhausen, Hannover



(Am I losing my mind, or they are currently rebuilding this place?)


Welfenschloss, Hannover



Schloss Friedenstein, Gotha



Residenzschloss, Dresden



Residenzschloss, Dessau, seat of the dukes of Anhalt



Burg Hohenzollern, Baden-Württemberg


(source)

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Old December 17th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #1155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klassiker View Post
Ingwaeone: I love your pictures and collect them all!!!! Thanks for Bochum.

Bochum has (and still have) some great buildings in the city center!!
Wupertal was (ans still is) a very well built city without the factories like in Esssen, Duisburg and Dortmund. In 1900 Wuppertal (actually 2 cities: Barmen & Elberfeldt) had already 400.000 inhabitants and for them extensive Gründerzeit Viertel were built.

Essen: Land & Amtsgericht (1908-1913); Kaufhaus Allthof; Krupp: main building (Offices).
Dortmund: Hauptbahhof
Duisburg: -
Bochum: Ruhrknappschaft (1908-1910) See picture Ingwaeone!!!
Gelsenkirchen: picturesque city center hauses
Düsseldorf:St Elisabeth Kirche, St Rochus kirche, Kunstgewerbe Museum, Opernhaus, Hotel Monopol-Metropol, Königsallee (prewar buildings)
Wupertal: Stadttheater, Ruhmeshalle, Thalia Theater, Kaufhof, Gründerzeit Bauten in the city center of Elberfeldt, Rathaus Elberfeldt.

Ingwaeone: please show us how Kassel once looked from the air!!! Kassel had stunning Gründerzeit buildings (5 stories high like in Berlin). Kassel had a stunning Theatre (Kaiser.......). Kassel had a stunning townhall and many beautiful palaces in the city center. Kassel also did have a factor for tanks that doomed this true German gem.
Same is true for once great Magdeburg, which was 2 x larger than Kassel. Had impressive a very Gründerzeit Viertel: Nordfront and around Magdeburg was a very large and modern industrial area which made the city a target in the bombing campaign of the Allies. Though Magdeburg was destroyed in 1945 with heavy loss of life, almost identical to what Dresden some later experienced. The Justizpalast southwest of the city and Polizei oberdirection (next to it) were 2 huge complexes. There is nowadays little left of these magnificent complexes.
Kassel





Gelsenkirchen, Bahnhof


(source)
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Old December 17th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #1156
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I wish Europe had this "charm" of old photochromes and postcards today.
Sadly it was destroyed in WW2 and by modernism of postwar era
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Old December 17th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #1157
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Braunschweig

image hosted on flickr


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8019/7...b39c2072_b.jpg
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Old December 18th, 2012, 07:13 AM   #1158
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Braunschweig



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Old December 18th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #1159
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Braunschweig on photochrome prints
















(from U.S. Library of Congress)
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #1160
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So amazing. I would do like everything to travel back in time (except to learn Polish).
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