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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:34 PM   #121
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Alot of landmarks have been rebuilt, but in Berlin, I think they should refacade all the newer buildings downtown to look older like they used to be before evil destroyed it.
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Old June 7th, 2007, 11:18 PM   #122
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guys do yoy have any helpfull links where i can find more old pictures from germany????
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Old June 8th, 2007, 07:20 PM   #123
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http://www.bildindex.de/rx/apsisa.dll/init?sid={d2efdd4b-7d54-4576-817e-fee705b961d7}&cnt=5376&%3Asysprotocol=http%3A&%3Asysbrowser=ie5&%3Alang=de&
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Old June 8th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
I think most Germans would acknowledge that the Poles did a far better job of rebuilding their cities.
Surprise...
Poland didnt have the problem that Germany had.
Here we had Ex-Nazis who worked for Speer and later became Bauräte in Hamburg,Hannover,Düsseldorf, etc,etc....
Those guys wanted a "loosened up" (aufgelockerte) city structure.
That was Hitlers ideal. He despised the old city structures because, according to him, they werent fit for the transport demands of the car age.
In fact it has been noted on several occasions, that Hitler didnt have much of a problem with the allied bombing raids.
Quite the contrary.
The same goes for Speer and his working colleagues who later oversaw Germanys rebuilding progress in the west and in the east.
The worst thing is that the people who ruined our cities have become professors and were able to teach their mindbogginly stupid theories.
They then probably retired somewhere on the countryside, leaving the mess to the others.
Without the lefty house occupying scene, Berlin would look a zillion times worse now for example.

Last edited by GNU; June 8th, 2007 at 08:43 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 12:17 AM   #125
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About Breslau, this one is quite nice
Before(1996)

After(2004)

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Old June 9th, 2007, 04:07 AM   #126
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The war was so uber useless, a travesty! So many architectural gems lost forever b/c of Nazi's and they hurt the German ppl. Bombing of German cities, and other cities for that matter ruined the beautiful cities that once were, and which now draw throngs on tourists.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 08:22 AM   #127
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The worst thing is , that probably more old architecture was destroyed after the war than during it, thanks to all of those EX-Nazis in high positions.
If you look at Berlin and what architectural gems actually survived the war and were later pulled down (oftentimes in the 80s) you really can get depressive
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Old June 9th, 2007, 08:32 AM   #128
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Has this been posted yet?
The Karstadt shopping mall at the Hermannplatz in Neukölln/Berlin.
Built in 1929.
The building even had a sprinkler system in place in case of a fire.

Survived the bombing raids but was blown up by SS units who were retreating from the russians.
They feared that it would serve as a sniper post or a artillery lookout.








And this is how it looks today:



In the background you can still see a small rest of the former Karstadt
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Old June 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM   #129
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All major rail stations in Berlin survived the war btw.
The Anhalter Station, the Lehrter station etc...
Both were pulled down even though they were both back in operation after the war had finished.
Both of the stations were replaced with.......NO MANS LAND.
Congratulations....

Lehrter Station:




Anhalter station: (was operational after the war. later the americans pulled down the roof)




And whats left today: (The portal would have been also pulled down hasnt it been for the protests of the art scene)





These are the former railtracks in the Yorckstrasse that have led to the station.



Recently, some CDU politicians (if I remember correctly) wanted them to be torn down aswell.
Thankfully that didnt happen.


Friedrichstrasenpassage, now also known as Tacheles:
was a giant shopping mall in Berlin.
Is survived the war with minor damages.
In the 1980s it was pulled down however.
It was stated that the building wasnt stable and could collapse.
It was later found out by experts that had been hired by the local art scene that this was in fact not true.
But that came too late. The mall had been pulled down and only a tiny fraction could be saved.
Today most of the space is a wasteland.........



As it is now: (one of the huge former entrance portals located on the Oranienburgerstrasse can be seen on the left)



This is the view from the Friedrichstrasse.
The surviving portal can be seen from behind.
Where theres grass now, used to be the rest of the shopping centre.
Again, that was all pulled down in the 80s for nothing at all.


Now one of the worst examples of architecture in post war Berlin:


This is the Belle Alliance Platz



Here the underground station can be seen:




And......

Today:







Its so ugly itll take your breath away.
even worse: Of all the social housing estates in Berlin they had to renovate exactly these.......
I would drop a MOAB on that area.

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In der völligen Zerstörung sahen Stadtplaner und Architekten auch eine Chance zu völlig neuen Entwicklungen. Der Architekt Hans Scharoun gewann einen Wettbewerb von 1959/1962 (vor bzw. nach dem Bau der Berliner Mauer) für die Bebauung des Mehringplatzes. Für Scharoun spielte die Gestaltung des sozialen Lebensraumes eine entscheidende Rolle, er propagierte die „bewohnbare Stadtlandschaft“, eine „…anstelle von Straße und Straßenbild parkähnliche Grünlandschaft, in die sich die zum Block vereinten Wohnzellen hineinlagern…“.

1968 übernahm der Architekt Werner Düttmann die Arbeiten am Mehringplatz von seinem Lehrer Scharoun, der 1972 starb. Die stadtplanerischen Vorgaben hatten sich inzwischen grundlegend gewandelt. Der Platz sollte nun ein verdichtetes Wohngebiet nach den Maßgaben des Sozialen Wohnungsbaus werden. Da die finanziellen Mittel knapp waren, musste mit stark schematisierten Wohnmodulen gearbeitet werden. Düttmann gelang dennoch ein eindrucksvolles Ergebnis. Das ganze Ensemble stellt sich als markante räumliche Komposition dar. Zwei konzentrische Ringe von Wohngebäuden mit vier und sechs Stockwerken umschließen den Platz, der als reine Fußgängerzone gestaltet wurde. Dazu kam eine Reihe von Ergänzungsbauten im nahen Umfeld. Die historische Straßenführung wurde verändert, Wilhelm- und Lindenstraße münden seitlich in die Uferstraße am Landwehrkanal, die befahrbare Friedrichstraße endet vor dem nördlichen Zugang zum Platz.
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Last edited by GNU; June 9th, 2007 at 01:29 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 02:16 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
All major rail stations in Berlin survived the war btw.
The Anhalter Station, the Lehrter station etc...
Both were pulled down even though they were both back in operation after the war had finished.
Both of the stations were replaced with.......NO MANS LAND.
Congratulations....
Why? To make room for the wall or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post








Its so ugly itll take your breath away.
even worse: Of all the social housing estates in Berlin they had to renovate exactly these.......
I would drop a MOAB on that area.



This is really sad. But at least, we know what it used to look like, so it may be rebuilt fully in the future.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus87 View Post
Why? To make room for the wall or something?
No, for nothing at all.
The stations werent in use at some point so they thought that they should pull them down.



Quote:
This is really sad. But at least, we know what it used to look like, so it may be rebuilt fully in the future.
I really hope so.
But the chances are slimm.
It would be great to open the Friedrichstrasse up like it used to be and let traffic through.
But as I said, those estates have been renovated so it doesnt look good.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 06:22 PM   #132
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I don't cry too much about 19th century architecture, since reconstructing something in that style would suffice. It is the destroyed medieval town centers of cities such as Frankfurt and Nurnberg that I pity the most; the only way to rebuild them is through 100% reconstruction, and nothing less.

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Old June 10th, 2007, 07:41 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Poland didnt have the problem that Germany had. Here we had Ex-Nazis who worked for Speer and later became Bauräte in Hamburg,Hannover,Düsseldorf, etc,etc....

...Without the lefty house occupying scene, Berlin would look a zillion times worse now for example.
Greatest pile of nonsense I have ever read.

You posted pictures of the ugly Mehring Platz as example for your weird thesis. But the responsible architects Werner Düttmann (who finished his architectural education after the war) and his teacher Hans Sharoun have not been Nazis, quite on the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Scharoun

"During the NAZI era he remained in Germany...In this time he only built a few family houses...He recorded his architectural ideas and visions secretly in numerous watercolors. With these imaginary architectures he prepared mentally for a time after the Nazis...After the end of the Second World War he was appointed by the Allies to the Berlin city building council and named director of the Abteilung Bau- und Wohnungswesen des Magistrats (Department of Building and Municipal Housing)."

Last edited by C-Beam; June 10th, 2007 at 07:48 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 07:46 PM   #134
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Everybody knows that the "Bausünden" (architectural sins) of the post war era have been commited by architects who wanted to make a fundamental break with the Nazi's and every architectural tradition before them. To claim that it have been Nazis who were responsible for these sins is falsification of history.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 07:51 PM   #135
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Hitler didn't hate old architecture. He was quite happy about some of the bombing raids in certain areas of Berlin because he wanted to replace that architecture with his own monumental, pseudo-classicist buildings.

Does this look like Bauhaus-architecture to you?











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Old June 10th, 2007, 09:16 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Beam View Post
Greatest pile of nonsense I have ever read.
The truth is hard to come by right?
Mike, sorry but you seem to know little to nothing about Berlin and its post war architecture.
I used to live in an area that was one of the districts that were left untouched by the war and postwar architecture.
Its a great area.
However it should have all been pulled down and be replaced with estates such as you would find at the Hallesche Tor and the Mehringplatz 1.
The left wing house occupying scene made sure that this didnt happen.
Thats just one little example.
I could name you a hundred more.
Id suggest that you inform yourself first before writing about this topic really.


Quote:
You posted pictures of the ugly Mehring Platz as example for your weird thesis. But the responsible architects Werner Düttmann (who finished his architectural education after the war) and his teacher Hans Sharoun have not been Nazis, quite on the contrary:
Hans Scharoun (you write that wit SCH btw) stayed in Germany at a time when many of his colleagues left Germany becuase unlike him they couldnt live under a Nazi government.
He worked as an architect in Germany and was taking care of the damage that had been caused by the air raids.
Look, the guy didnt have too much trouble with the Nazis unlike others (especially from the Bauhaus movement) who had to flee from Germany.
In fact he was a Conservative.
However, I have simply pointed out that the architects fucked up there and thats that.


If you want to btw. Ill go to the Library tomorrow, find the Spiegel Extra issue about the bombing raids and write the whole article of an architecture professor who has analized the post war reconstruction period.
Its no secret at all that the Bauräte in several cities (Hamburg, Hannover, Düsseldorf) were all Ex-Nazis who despised the old city structures more than anything else.
They were quite happy about the bombing raids because it enabled them to recreate the german cities in their way, which was a loosened up city structure as favoured by Hitler.

He also aknowledges the work of the house occupying scene which saved hundreds of houses in Berlin from being destroyed.
The same goes for the art scene.
Why, if Im so wrong according to you, dont you look up on the history of the Friedrichstrassenpassage or the Gasometers in the Prenzlauer Berg for starters?
These are examples from eastern Germany btw. where the art scene did a lot to save some of Berlins architectural gems.

Some anti pulldown Hausbesetzer slogans:

Jeder Stein, der abgerissen, wird von uns zurückgeschmissen

Instandbesetzen statt Kaputtbesitzen

Macht ihr unsere Häuser platt - nehmen wir uns den Rest der Stadt!



Quote:
In Berlin-Kreuzberg richtete sich die Bewegung v. a. gegen die Flächensanierungspläne des Senats, welche im einzelnen den Abriss von Altbauten und den Neubau von Trabantensiedlungen zum Ziel hatten. Dazu ließen die Hauseigentümer die meist noch gut erhaltenen Altbauten durch niedrige Investitionen oftmals gezielt verfallen. Berlins erste Bewegung endete im Jahre 1981, als der Senat die „Berliner Linie“ verkündete, welche keine Neubesetzungen mehr möglich machte. Zuvor hatten sich die Besetzer über die Legalisierung der Häuser in zwei Lager gespalten: Die einen wollten ihr neues Wohn- und Lebensverhältnis sichern, während die anderen den Besetzerstatus und ihre damit verbundenen politischen Ziele nicht aufgeben wollten.

Last edited by GNU; June 10th, 2007 at 09:55 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Hitler didn't hate old architecture. He was quite happy about some of the bombing raids in certain areas of Berlin because he wanted to replace that architecture with his own monumental, pseudo-classicist buildings.
Wrong.
Hitler HATED the old city structures.
He said that often enough, most famously when he had a meeting with Göbbels.
He clearly stated that he was happy about the bombing raids. (not just in some areas of Berlin as you stated but in the whole of Germany)
He thought that the old cities werent fit for the upcoming car age and that those old buildings were built with "shoddy quality".
In 1944 Speer and his colleagues (of whom many should become Bauräte shortly after the war) travelled through Germany and noted quite happily that a lot of the old city structures are gone.
Therefore they thought it would be easier for them to re-create the cities in their very own way after the Endsieg.

Quote:
Does this look like Bauhaus-architecture to you?
Does this look like "old architecture" to you?
To me it looks like tasteless Nazi architecture btw.

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Old June 10th, 2007, 10:03 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Wrong.
Hitler HATED the old city structures.
Your are twisting Kamplamm's words. Kampflamm said that Hitler liked classic architecture. And you replied that this is wrong and then you go on talking about "old city structures" - something very differnt and with which you obviously mean naturally grown often medieval slightly chaotic networks of streets and buildings.

Yes, Hitler was against these chaotic and unplanned structures in many areas of of Berlin. He dreamed of creating wide and straight streets that were bordered by pseudo-classicist buildings in order to create a proper representation for the empire he wanted to rule over. He oriented itself at examples such as classic Rome and Paris.

Note though that this is completely different from the architectural opinion that was dominant in post war Germany. These post war architects were completely against classic architecture and empire like pompous parade streets. They might also have liked open spaces but that is not enough to claim that their concepts were identical to the NAZI's. Just have a look at examples of Nazi architecture and post war architecture, they are very different.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Does this look like "old architecture" to you?
To me it looks like tasteless Nazi architecture btw.
There is tasteless Nazi architecture and good Nazi architecture. Overall though I think Nazi architecture was more beautiful than post war architecture since they respected and oriented themselves at classic designs. Something that the post war architects with their conviction of a "break with the past" sadly failed to do.





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Old June 10th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
I used to live in an area that was one of the districts that were left untouched by the war and postwar architecture.
Its a great area.
However it should have all been pulled down and be replaced with estates such as you would find at the Hallesche Tor and the Mehringplatz 1.
And I suspect it have been old Nazis who wanted to tear down those buildings, right?


Quote:
Hans Scharoun (you write that wit SCH btw) stayed in Germany at a time when many of his colleagues left Germany becuase unlike him they couldnt live under a Nazi government.
Yes, yes....and about 300,000 Jews did also not flee from Germany. According to your logic they were Nazis. Well, of course they weren't. Not everybody has the will to leave his homeland just because circumstances are bad. And the principle of hope for better times can help get from day to day.


Quote:
He worked as an architect in Germany and was taking care of the damage that had been caused by the air raids.
Rebuilding bomb damaged private buildings doesn't make him a Nazi nor a sympathizer.


Quote:
Look, the guy didnt have too much trouble with the Nazis unlike others (especially from the Bauhaus movement) who had to flee from Germany.
The majority of Germans did not have trouble with the Nazis. If you keep silent and mind you own business you in general won't provocate authorities to target you. That once again doesn't mean though that he was a symphatizer or supporter. The Wikipedia article clearly states that he worked in secrecy on his archictural dreams (which were obviously not in line with the Nazi doctrine) hoping for the Nazi rule to end so that he could start building on them.


Quote:
In fact he was a Conservative.
Thanks for clarifying that he wasn't a Nazi.
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