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Old March 10th, 2013, 03:38 AM   #1421
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Very beautiful photos, thank you for sharing. I'm just wondering, are most of these buildings result of Gründerzeit or earlier/later era? How many cities in Germany had population over 100k people before 1840s (before the beginning of Gründerzeit)?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 04:10 AM   #1422
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Most of these buildings in the recent pictures were built from 1871 to 1914 (except the the Karstadt building that was built 1927-1929)
The basis for berlins urban expansion was the Hobrecht-Plan from 1862. It was supposed to manage the very fast increasing population.

The term "Gründerzeit" can have different meanings. It depends on in which context you use it. Historical correct it just means the short boom time from 1871-1873 that was caused by french reperations and ended with the Gründerkrach . In an architectural context it is often used as a synonym for the whole historicist or revival architecture of the Kaiserreich (1871-1918). (Including neo-gothic,neo-renaissance, neo-romanesque, Jugendstil usw)

The list from wikipedia shows the biggest german speaking cities around 1849.

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Old March 10th, 2013, 04:22 AM   #1423
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Thank you for your quick response.
It's absolutely astonishing how much can be achieved in just around 50 years.

For me, it seems that following cities are the most important in German history and culture (an assumption based on high population over centuries): Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig. Which of these cities have been rebuilt or survived the war without significant damage?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 05:34 AM   #1424
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For me, it seems that following cities are the most important in German history and culture: Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig.
I'd add Aachen and Trier as well. I'm also wondering if various ehemalige deutsche Oststädte had any cultural, political or economic significancy. Königsberg? Breslau? Stettin?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #1425
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I'd add Aachen and Trier as well. I'm also wondering if various ehemalige deutsche Oststädte had any cultural, political or economic significancy. Königsberg? Breslau? Stettin?
Stettin and Breslau were conquested in a various battles, so I wouldn't call them core cities of Germany. Btw, Stettin was a small, unimportant town until the 19th century. I don't see any reason to call it historically, culturally or architecturally important for German nation.

On the other hand, Königsberg was rather something like Gibraltar for UK until the late 18th century, when it became integral part of Germany, attached to the rest of a country. German nation showed how important was the city, when they didn't do anything to stop the Prussian Homage process (city between 1525 and 1657 was vassal of another country and was paying homage to not German kings).

Could you tell me how big were Trier and Aachen in medieval times? Maybe these cities should be added to my list.

I'll ask again.
Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig. Which of these cities have been rebuilt or survived the war without significant damage?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 01:15 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
For me, it seems that following cities are the most important in German history and culture (an assumption based on high population over centuries): Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig. Which of these cities have been rebuilt or survived the war without significant damage?
Except Regensburg each of these cities suffered area bombings. In the other ones the reconstruction work concentrated on most important buildings. I think München, Lübeck, Augsburg and Köln were rebuilt more or less well if you consider the grade of destruction. Frankfurt started to reconstruct small parts of the Altstadt in the 80s and is currently planning to continue (Dom-Römer-Projekt).

Breslau, Stettin, Königsberg and Breslau were part Germany (if you call the entire german speaking areas so) after the eastward expansion(Ostsiedlung) in the middle age. Stettin and Danzig were very important Hanse cities, not less important around 14-16th century than Lübeck, Stralsund or Hamburg.
Königsberg was the center of the Teutonic Order and later the crown city of Prussia. The fact that is was not a part Holy Roman empire or German Confederation means not that it had a status like Gribraltar.
Breslau was the "capital" of Silesia, a very rich region especially around 17-18th century. Calling all these cities unimportant is just wrong.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #1427
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"if you call the entire german speaking areas so"
No, for me territories that belonged to German king can be called Germany. In Cameroon, Ireland, Nigeria, etc. English is official language. Would you call them part of England (it makes even a bit more sense here, because they are sovereign countries - link)?

Btw, why you didn't mention Prag, Brussel, Antwerpen, Gent, Brugge, Graz, Triest, Brunn or Wien
Stettin or Breslau more important than Prag or Wien? Stettin (with population below 5k in the 14-16th century) on a par with Lübeck and Hamburg? Give me a break Obvious troll is obvious.

"I think München, Lübeck (...) and Köln were rebuilt more or less well"

Köln Alter Markt

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Markt_001.jpg

München Marienplatz

http://www.online-utility.org/image/...Muenchen-2.jpg

Lübeck Markt

http://www.voigt-bismarckschule.de/U...beck_Markt.jpg

German restorers were only reconstructing the major historic monuments and not tenements?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #1428
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As I said, more or less. Köln reconstructed nearly every romanesque church up to the late 80s and Lübeck is still a world heritage so it can't be that bad...

Quote:
No, for me territories that belonged to German king can be called Germany. In Cameroon, Ireland, Nigeria, etc. English is official language. Would you call them part of England (it makes even a bit more sense here, because they are sovereign countries - link)?
This point of view makes no sense when you look at the german history at all. There were several Kings and Emperors, who ruled a german state but did not even speak german.
So for you people in Silesia, which actually belonged to the empire and the Confederation were germans but people in East Prussia not? They were ruled by the same king of Prussia. We are talking about a coherent area of german settlements for centuries in the east. I see no point where this could be comparable to some english speaking colonies all over the world with an own ethnical and cultural background.

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Btw, why you didn't mention Prag, Brussel, Antwerpen, Gent, Brugge, Graz, Triest, Brunn or Wien
Stettin or Breslau more important than Prag or Wien? Stettin (with population below 5k in the 14-16th century) on a par with Lübeck and Hamburg? Give me a break Obvious troll is obvious.
Why should I, you did not ask after these cities. I just gave a response to the wrong argument that the cities in the east were not important for german history. And Stettin had a population about 10k at the top. Pest epidemics hit the city several times. And yes, for the region Pommerania Stettin was as together with Danzig as important as Lübeck for Holstein or Hamburg and Bremen for the Nort sea coast.

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Old March 10th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #1429
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We are talking about a coherent area of german settlements for centuries.
So why not Prag, Brussel, Antwerpen, Gent, Brugge, Graz, Triest, Brunn or Wien? What makes Stettin more important Hanseatic city than Riga or Ravel at that time?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #1430
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As I said, more or less. Köln reconstructed nearly every romanesque church up to the late 80s and Lübeck is still a world heritage so it can't be that bad...
Precisely. The biggest difference between model old town reconstruction in West Germany and model old town reconstruction in Poland was that in Germany all the reconstruction rules of traditional 'Austrian school', which were later incorporated into the Venice Charter (1964). I.e.: most of landmarks (churches, palaces) were reconstructed, quite thoroughly, provided that their destruction hadn't been complete (razed to the ground). And the new apartment buildings were established, either on the old plots of land (Lubeck, Koln) or... on the new plots of land (Frankfurt a.M., poor city).
And of course, new buildings were visibly and ostensibly modern, why shouldn't they? They're weren't reconstructions, hence they were modern.

That's how it should be done by the book.

In Poland it was done the other way: not only landmarks has been rebuilt, but also (in model reconstruction, I repeat, so Warsaw, Poznan, Gdańsk Główne Miasto/Danzig Rechtstadt, 1/2 of Wrocław/Breslau, Olsztyn/Allenstein, Opole/Oppeln O.S.) most of residential buildings were thoroughly reconstructed. Or the new buildings in historic style were built if, for some reasons, the reconstruction wasn't recommendable. That's completely against the rules. But it's beautiful As Hirszfeld once said: there's no progress without some heresy

And there's irony, that after all these years in Germany the concept of overriding the Venice Charter and reconstruct splendid old town (such as Dresden) is more and more popular, whereas in Poland we're moaning about consevation rules and generally we're trying to be more Catholic than the Pope
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Old March 10th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #1431
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Cities that somehow survived the bombing, shelling and postwar demolition

to RS_UK-PL:

Quote:
I'll ask again.
Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig. Which of these cities have been rebuilt or survived the war without significant damage?
Germany had 100 cities with > 100.000 pop in 1940.
In the period 1925-1940 modern suburbs and buildings were built all over predominantly Gründerzeit looking urban Germany.

The war ravaged most large cities with some exceptions: München, Leipzig, Halle, Wiesbaden, Lübeck and Regensburg along with Göttingen, Erfurt, Görlitz, Heidelberg, Fürth, Erlangen came through with less than 33% destruction: all others not!
The rebuilding was done at start very well, but in the 50-ties, 60-ties and 70-ties allmost all Gründerzeit remains were simplified, modernized or demolished. Pre-war Germany was no longer "visible". The steep and impressing roofs were eliminated from street views and simplified and lower roofs, modernises facades with large modern windows were substituted for
the old German Kaiserzeit looks.

From the 80-ties on however on a very modest scale some reconstructions or reparations were carried out. The last 15 years however this was done at a major scale in Leipzig, followed by Halle and now also in Potsdam and the old inner city of Dresden. In these cities however the historical remains were still substantial.
In Berlin and other cities the loss was so immense that virtually no reconstructions were carried out.

Cities which look nice after 60 years of modest (minor) reparations are Würzburg, Münster, Freiburg, Mainz, Koblenz, Braunschweig, Aachen, Karsruhe and Trier. The city centers of Hamburg, Bremen, Breslau and Danzig looks still impressive and a lot of minor towns in Eastern Germany and northern Bavaria as well (Plauen, Cottbus, Jena, Gotha, Zwickau)
So does the Gründerzeit suburbs of Stuttgart, Hannover, Berlin, Chemnitz, Wuppertal and Dresden.

Others (the fast majority) were handled badly however with virtually no reconstructions: Köln, Bonn, Duisburg, Essen, Bochum, Dortmund, Osnabrück, Kassel (terrible handling of a once beautiful city), Magdeburg (same as Kassel), Frankfurt, Nürnberg, Mannheim, Darmstadt, Heilbronn, Pforzheim, Augsburg, Ulm, Dessau, Halberstadt.

Of these Nürnberg and Mannheim could have been handled much better.
The market square in Nürnberg should have been reconstructed like so many roofs of houses in the older suburbs, the Pellerhouse and much more!
Prewar Mannheim was also a great city and little or nothing has been done to reconstruct some of the streets or squares there.

Kölln: is slowly being improved, but rebuilding and demolishing (postoffice, main railway station) were terrible acts.

Frankfurt: the main railway station quarter and former (great) ZEIL, the townhall (the roofs and spires!): all could have been much better looking if a little energy is put into these areas.

Magdeburg & Kassel: shame on these once great cities which seems to have lost virtually all beauty. Like the outer Ring in Dresden rebuilding in a more historic way mixed with substantial reconstructions is the only solution for these 3 cities which are nowadays mere shadows of their great past.

Berlin: too much clean new buildings, too few reconstructions: the balance is lost. Reconstructions should have been done in the Leipziger Strasse, Dönnhof Platz, Belle Alliance Platz and Tauentzien/Bülow Strasse. Many "stripped" houses could have been given their once beautiful decorations back (to an acceptabel extend). Prewar Berlin looked great and something possitive should have been done in that direction: rebuilding & reconstruction of the former Altstadt of Berlin!!! Now a moonlike landscape.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #1432
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So why not Prag, Brussel, Antwerpen, Gent, Brugge, Graz, Triest, Brunn or Wien? What makes Stettin more important Hanseatic city than Riga or Ravel at that time?
What are you actually trying to tell me? Just because I did not mentioned these cities it does not mean they were not important in my opinion.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 06:30 PM   #1433
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Stettin and Breslau were conquested in a various battles, so I wouldn't call them core cities of Germany.
It's all about how you understand Germany. There was no united German state until the 19th century. Is Prussia the predecessor of nowadays Germany? Of course, but so is Austria, Bavaria, Württemberg, Luxemburg or even Bohemia. Austrian Habsburgs ruled the Holy Roman Empire for centuries, it was a Habsburg emperor who included the German Nation in the official title of the empire and last but not least it were the Austrian Habsburgs who were the first to unite Germany. Before the Habsburg era the emperor resided in Prague as Bohemia was one of the key pieces of the empire. My point is, while at some point many German states decided to cut ties with various forms of the pan-German federation, Silesia and Pommerania were one of the very few states that always stayed. Throughout the centuries both states had plenty of chances to leave the union, but they never did. During the Thirty Years' War the Silesian nobility set the pace to cut ties with the Habsburg monarchy, they were free to leave the federation and reunite with the Kingdom of Poland. But they decided to rather swear fealty to the Electorate of Saxony than leave the Empire.
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Could you tell me how big were Trier and Aachen in medieval times? Maybe these cities should be added to my list.
Charles the Great, does it ring any bells? Free Imperial City of Aachen? Electorate of Trier?
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Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Berlin, Frankfurt am Mein, Bremen, Augsburg, Munchen, Lubeck, Dresden, Mainz, Regensburg and Braunschweig. Which of these cities have been rebuilt or survived the war without significant damage?
Munich, Lübeck and Regensburg.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #1434
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Just because I did not mentioned these cities it does not mean they were not important in my opinion.
I've asked about the most important architecturally, culturally, etc. German cities in history. Stettin was nowhere near as important as Hamburg and Lubeck or other ~20 cities mentioned. You didn't answer to my question. Stettin had tiny Old Square, not really nice Old Town, was just an unimportant port until the 19-20th century described by English traveller in a book "A Handbook for travellers" in 1853 as city where "there is nothing to see".

"Munich, Lübeck and Regensburg" - so now I know what cities to visit next
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Old March 10th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #1435
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I'd say Wiesbaden, Marburg, Heidelberg and Bamber are also worth visiting if you're that much into historical architecture. Not to mention dozens of smaller towns.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #1436
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I've asked about the most important architecturally, culturally, etc. German cities in history.
Where did you ask this? You asked wether the cities you named were destroyed or reconstructed and I answered to that.

Quote:
Stettin was nowhere near as important as Hamburg and Lubeck or other ~20 cities mentioned. You didn't answer to my question. Stettin had tiny Old Square, not really nice Old Town, was just an unimportant port until the 19-20th century described by English traveller in a book "A Handbook for travellers" in 1853 as city where "there is nothing to see".
1853? Wow, you are aware of the fact that the valuation of architecture at this time distinguishs quite a bit from ours today?
And as I said, if you look at the Hanse from 14-16th century, it is absolutely correct to name Stettin in a row with Hamburg, Bremen, Lübeck, Wismar, Stralsund, Danzig, Riga and Reval.

Quote:
I'd say Wiesbaden, Marburg, Heidelberg and Bamber are also worth visiting if you're that much into historical architecture. Not to mention dozens of smaller towns.
Erfurt and Halle should be named too. Wiesbaden is quite the same size but has barely buildings that are older than 160 years.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 10:52 PM   #1437
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All about building, building, building, building ...
And what about 60 million people dead in WWII ?

One single life is more worth than a million buildings.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #1438
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All about building, building, building, building ...
And what about 60 million people dead in WWII ?

One single life is more worth than a million buildings.
Where the hell did that come from?
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Old March 11th, 2013, 03:54 AM   #1439
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(...)And as I said, if you look at the Hanse from 14-16th century, it is absolutely correct to name Stettin in a row with Hamburg, Bremen, Lübeck, Wismar, Stralsund, Danzig, Riga and Reval.
Those who have seen "Nosferatu" may be able to recognise these places...

Wismar





Lübeck





Berlin, the Marble Hall at Zoogarten, where the movie premiered


(source: WC/Bildindex.de)
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Old March 11th, 2013, 03:55 AM   #1440
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Lübeck









The Marienkirche with temporary spires after the bombing

(source)
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