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Old April 15th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #1481
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I always recommend people who are interested in pre-war german arcitecture to visit Stralsund and Schwerin. Take the train from Hamburg or Berlin!
Great recommendation!

Stralsund and Wismar are mostly really authentic and beautiful Hanseatic old towns. The best kept medieval ones in the Baltic Sea region.

Güstrow, Lüneburg, Stade, Waren/Müritz and Neustrelitz are great authentic destinations in Northern Germany as well.

And close to Berlin, you should check Potsdam. It's a pretty well kept Prussian old town and residence with wonderful world heritage palaces. And they're even reconstructing what they lost in WW2! (City Palace, Old Market, etc.)
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Old April 15th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #1482
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Rechtstadt Danzig 1930:
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Old April 15th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #1483
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I agree. Gottingen was only hit at the railway station as I am told, and Gorlitz appears 100% authentic to me.

PS:I would like to add something that many people don't know. The neustadt in Dresden (half the city east of the river Elbe) saw little destruction, and looks today as it was never hit by a bomb. Exeption is the first blocks in the "Hauptstrasse", wich of course should be rebuildt in original apperance IMO. BTW: I always recommend people who are interested in pre-war german arcitecture to visit Stralsund and Schwerin. Take the train from Hamburg or Berlin!
Actually, the Neustadt was indeed hit hard on the entire south end. The area from the Marien Bridge all the way to the Albert Bridge and south of Albert Platz was bombed to total or heavy destruction. The Hauptstrasse is the center piece to that area, but unfortunately the destruction was definitely not limited to it.

You have to go all the way up to Bautzner Strasse and north of that street before one begins to see larger, full block areas that did not get hit, such as the area around the Martin Luther Kirche.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:51 AM   #1484
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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #1485
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68 years ago today Zerbst, one of the 5 small Anhaltian capitals, was destroyed in WW2.

















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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #1486
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Hope, the palace will be reconstructed in the future. Are there any projects?
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #1487
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Hope, the palace will be reconstructed in the future. Are there any projects?
There are a few people in Zerbst who lobby for a reconstruction, but IMHO the chances are slim. It's a poor region, the palace is huge, and you need to find a use for it. The only rational argument that makes sense is to complete the Dessau-Wörlitz Garden Realm, which was a collection of English parks that connected the different palaces.

Anyway. Neighboring Dessau, another small Anhaltian capital with a nice palace, was destroyed a month before Zerbst:









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Old April 17th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1488
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It's so horrible.

I hope that one day, thanks due to additive manufacturing, robotics and other new technologies, reconstructions could become really affordable and easy to do. It doesn't have to be all handcrafted to be beautiful.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #1489
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In mid April 1945, what possible reason did the Allies have to unleash 80-100 bombers on this small town and destroy it almost completely?
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Old April 17th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #1490
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In mid April 1945, what possible reason did the Allies have to unleash 80-100 bombers on this small town and destroy it almost completely?
Lol are you serious?
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Old April 17th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #1491
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I bet he his. Because there's just no reason to do something like this. Crime isn't resolved by crime and violence.


Anyway, let's not get back into the war discussion mode... again. Wrong thread!
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Old April 17th, 2013, 07:51 PM   #1492
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In mid April 1945, what possible reason did the Allies have to unleash 80-100 bombers on this small town and destroy it almost completely?
Until the end of WW2 the region around Leipzig an Halle was one of the industrial centres of Germany. Dessau was home of Junkers, Zerbst had a big military airfield where jet fighters were located, Leuna was around the corner. Especially the Leuna works were attacked until the end of the war.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #1493
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Most serious bombings were carried out in 1945

To all,

Zerbst was not alone in the wave of destruction that hit Germany: allmost all really bad bombings were caried out in the last 4 months of WW2: Zerbst was a very nice little town that deserved no attention of 100 heavy bombers: Würzburg (THE gem of Germany), beautiful majestic Potsdam, Heilbronn, cosey Pforzheim, Chemnitz (Altstadt), Dresden (the big Barocke city) with all its massive built up areas, Berlin-Kreuzberg (arguably the most attractive of Berlins areas), Magdeburg (super Gem on the Elbe nr2) and then also most thorough too: in Magdeburg virtually no area was spared!!). Berlin-Kreuzberg had with Hamburg, Dresden, Hannover and Magdeburg the largest destroyed urbanized areas of Europe. The bombings at Dresden, Pforzheim, Magdeburg were all > 10.000 killed (murdered if you prefer) civilians.
Only Hannover was reasonably rebuilt, were all other cities lost all their former grandeur and beauty.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 07:49 AM   #1494
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No one is suggesting that military targets that helped fuel the nazi war machine should not have been destroyed completely and fully. But, the residential, educational, religious, commercial, and other civilian areas were unnecessarily terror bombed. This was especially true in the last weeks of the war. The answer to the question "why?" is simple--vengeance. For the good guys to have done so is very, very bad.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #1495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
No one is suggesting that military targets that helped fuel the nazi war machine should not have been destroyed completely and fully. But, the residential, educational, religious, commercial, and other civilian areas were unnecessarily terror bombed. This was especially true in the last weeks of the war. The answer to the question "why?" is simple--vengeance. For the good guys to have done so is very, very bad.
As Hermann Goering once said: If you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs

Especially true for heavy, horizontal, 4-engine bombers with low precision of bombardment

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I bet he his. Because there's just no reason to do something like this. Crime isn't resolved by crime and violence.

Anyway, let's not get back into the war discussion mode... again. Wrong thread!
OT would be foiled quicker if we avoid words such as "crime" to describe non-criminal actions
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Old April 18th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #1496
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As Hermann Goering once said: If you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs

Especially true for heavy, horizontal, 4-engine bombers with low precision of bombardment



OT would be foiled quicker if we avoid words such as "crime" to describe non-criminal actions
1) true, some eggs need be broken to make an omelet, but then you have an omelet. Bad analogy. The lack of precision had little to do with the terror bombing and mass destruction; it was a purposeful and intentional strategy on civilian targets.
2) hence, viewed as a "crime". Even the Allies evaluative measures of war crimes include the vengeful bombings, especially during the last months of the war. As measured by "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military, or civilian necessity," it's pretty clear that the Zerbst bombing (along with the other late-in-the-war attacks) were crimes.

Let's face it, most crimes never get charged much less tried. It's a function of many factors that cannot be mediated effectively. That doesn't mean the crime didn't occur. Personally, I think describing criminal actions as crimes (whether or not charged and tried) actually moves the cause of humanity forward, lest we continue to remain in the self righteous webs we tend to be good at weaving.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #1497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
No one is suggesting that military targets that helped fuel the nazi war machine should not have been destroyed completely and fully. But, the residential, educational, religious, commercial, and other civilian areas were unnecessarily terror bombed. This was especially true in the last weeks of the war. The answer to the question "why?" is simple--vengeance. For the good guys to have done so is very, very bad.
Some military historians point out that had the allies used the same bombing resources as the they used at medieval towns etc. at german infrastructure (power grids/lies, roads, railways) instead, the war could actually have been shortened. Todays (US/Nato) bombing campains focus primarily one such targets.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #1498
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Vengeance and terror did lengthen the war

MHJO, yes that is true and did cost aprox 100.000 German civilian lives or so more AND destroyed the key-beauty areas, which if would be present today, would give nowaday Germany a totally different value. Imagine that Berlin-Kreuzberg, Dresden, Potsdam, Chemnitz, Würzburg, Magdeburg would be totally preserved: what a wealth of architecture then would be still visible qand would have a p;ositve effect for other towns like Frankfurt to rebuilt their lost Gems.

A precondition also then had to be fullfilled: Germans themselves should have not destuc the many details on the houses, not simplify or modernise their roofs or demolish the many thousands of surviving buildings in favour of more space for traffic. Nor would the GDR removed dozens of surviving churches or church towers as had happened in Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden.

If only Germany had surendered before 1945, millions of Germans would have survived as also hundred of thousands of buildings and houses.......
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Old April 18th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #1499
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Dresden, König-Johann-Straße

Nr. 19, NW corner at the Intersection with Moritz-Straße:




SE corner of the same intersection:
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Old April 19th, 2013, 02:56 AM   #1500
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If only Germany had surendered before 1945, millions of Germans would have survived as also hundred of thousands of buildings and houses.......

There's a pile of evidence that suggests Hitler tried to negotiate a peace in 1940 but Churchill would have no part of it, rather lead Britain on with a 'win at all costs' strategy.
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