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Old June 3rd, 2014, 10:38 PM   #1661
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Hamburg - Elbbrücke 1927 por ARBaurial, en Flickr




Fantastic. Never seen it Hamburg, so I guess it's also a WW2 victim.


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Old June 4th, 2014, 08:53 AM   #1662
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Bremen


Deutschland. Bremen Teichmannbrunnen mit Dom 2177 R por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. Bremen Norddeutscher Lloyd 2172 R por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. Bremen Hillmann's Hotel und "Europäischer Hof" por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. 2179 R Bremen Blumenschule am Wall. por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. Bremen Partie an der Oberweser por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. Bremen Freihafen por Morton1905, en Flickr


Deutschland. Bremen. Große Weserbrücke. por Morton1905, en Flickr
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Old June 5th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #1664
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Beautiful Bremen, forever lost.
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Old June 5th, 2014, 12:10 AM   #1665
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Indeed
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Old June 5th, 2014, 12:12 AM   #1666
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Yes, it is fascinating and by today's special standards, the housing in old Hamburg was cramped, dark, and limited with difficult access.

But, it would have been a blessing to mankind to have the old structures and alleys today with updated interiors!
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Old June 6th, 2014, 07:08 AM   #1667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post

Yes, it is fascinating and by today's special standards, the housing in old Hamburg was cramped, dark, and limited with difficult access.

But, it would have been a blessing to mankind to have the old structures and alleys today with updated interiors!
Well said.
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Old June 6th, 2014, 03:33 PM   #1668
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Yes, blown to bits in the earliest of the carpet bombing attacks on German cities.

it's interesting that this splendid structure was built in the same 7-8 year window as the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco.
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Old June 9th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #1669
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But, it would have been a blessing to mankind to have the old structures and alleys today with updated interiors!
That sounds very much like the Dresden-Neumarkt project.

Is this what has happened in Prague, with historical structures??
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Old June 10th, 2014, 02:11 PM   #1670
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Prague was remained more or less untouched in ww2
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Old June 10th, 2014, 04:49 PM   #1671
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Yes, while Prague was not harmed (majorly) in WWII, many of the centuries old buildings have been upgraded--AC, heating, plumbing, windows, etc. Sometimes elevators as well. The space remains the same, usually, and the exteriors are repaired and maintained, so we have the best of both worlds.

It's funny how many of the same folks who push for tear downs and play with "glass and Legos" (love that illustration), are also the ones who adore and live in loft spaces which are quintessential examples of historic architecture--keep the best exterior artistry and design while making the interiors appropriate for current needs.
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Old June 10th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #1672
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No - the gates were demolished in the late 50s to improve the car traffic on the bridge...
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Old June 11th, 2014, 04:52 AM   #1673
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Same bridge? I've seen photos of the bridge collapsed in the river. No?
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Old June 11th, 2014, 10:00 AM   #1674
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Same bridge? I've seen photos of the bridge collapsed in the river. No?
It is the same bridge - no, the bridge didn't collapse...

There were no fightings in the streets of Hamburg at the end of WWII, since the city declared itself as open city and the english troops entered the city at may 3rd 1945.

The destructions in Hamburg were a result of the air raids - mainly in the operation "Gomorrha" from Jul 24th-Aug 3rd 1943.

There is a picture archive of Hamburg with a lot of old and new pics - here are two links to this archive:

bridge with the old gates:
http://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/ham...lbbruecken.jpg

bridge today (the gates were demolished in the late fifties) - two bridges were added on both sides of the bridge also:
http://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/ham...lbbruecken.jpg
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Old June 16th, 2014, 07:22 PM   #1675
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Same bridge? I've seen photos of the bridge collapsed in the river. No?
This isn't the post I "liked". I think it's awful that, after losing most of the architectural heritage of the city in 1943, the Powers That Be decided to demolish those gates.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #1676
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I'll be liked anyway I can be! Life is not easy. LOL!

It is tragic that of the few gems that made it through the 5 years nightmare of carpet bombing, it would be purposefully destroyed after peace was realized. I'm sure in the chaos after 1945 it was not a good time to discuss architectural heritage.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 08:52 AM   #1677
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I'll be liked anyway I can be! Life is not easy. LOL!

It is tragic that of the few gems that made it through the 5 years nightmare of carpet bombing, it would be purposefully destroyed after peace was realized. I'm sure in the chaos after 1945 it was not a good time to discuss architectural heritage.
Well, Hamburg has a 'tradition' to demolish buildings and create something new. The operation Gomorrah in WWII and the bad city fire of 1842 were ot he only reasons that you won't find a lot old buildings in Hamburg today...

The most popular example is St Mary's cathedral
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Old June 19th, 2014, 07:27 PM   #1678
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Well, Hamburg has a 'tradition' to demolish buildings and create something new. The operation Gomorrah in WWII and the bad city fire of 1842 were ot he only reasons that you won't find a lot old buildings in Hamburg today...

The most popular example is St Mary's cathedral

I read recently that the Nazi leadership actually welcomed the destruction of the old inner cities of German cities, as they planned to clear them out anyway. It was probably here, but was auf Deutsche. Here is the English translation, courtesy Google Translate:

"Bomb for building

The Nazi architects of the air war came just right. He eliminated a lot of old building structures that were the innovation projects of the "leader" in the way. After 1945, the Nazi planners came again to train and influenced the reconstruction of the devastated country after Hitler's ideas.

Earlier Hitler had discovered positive in the fire storm. So he said in late June 1943 the diarist Goebbels: "The fact that the cities being hit at its core, is seen from a higher vantage point not quite so bad. The cities have no good pictures in the aesthetic possible sense, the most industrialized cities are poorly constructed, built musty and miserable. We will get through the British air raids space here.
The new plans, which are designed for the Ruhr would have otherwise anyway always pushed to the existing conditions. "
Even then - not only in the infamous "Nero Decree" of March 1945 - the leaders flirted with the total destruction.

Not only Warlord Hitler saw in the Allied carpet bombing the chance to make new Germany's cities. Many architects and planners of the Nazi era were looking forward to this "unique opportunity in history".
Already during the war, a number of them had begun in a big way with the planning for the aftermath.
So said a member of the "Task Force reconstruction planning of destroyed cities," the Hamburg architect Konstanty Gutschow, in the spring of 1944: "The vast majority of the structural destruction (Hamburg) we cry no tears for" - pure cynicism in view of the fact that in Hamburg in July 1943 the Allied bombing 40,000 people have been killed and half of the buildings were destroyed.
The mentality of the Nazi town planner is also an opinion of the Bremer building advice Wilhelm Wortmann from December 1943: "The war, and especially the air war shifted to the big city of yesterday and today the death blow and proposes a mighty breach to fight for their full recovery and true redesign . "
That Wortmann has the structure of Bremen a decisive influence after 1945, is just one of many documents for a sobering findings: There was no urban development in the "zero hour". The reconstruction led after 1945 by the city planners who had prepared these basic features of during the war.
Only the brown whitewash had stripped some Nazi Baufunktionär be denazified than the thing Obligated technocrat.
All it took.
The destruction of historical structures Gros German cities had been predetermined since the Nazi seizure of power in 1933: Even without bombing their cut would have changed significantly.
..........

The "leaders" wanted to create in the cities accommodate millions of cars: "I see the development of traffic in front of me and I know that in ten years, especially the trucks on one will be enormous."

.............

The plan targets for Berlin served as a model for other cities: 1939 18 cities were already provided for the conversion, and in the summer of 1940 - after the defeat of France - Hitler ordered an extensive building program: In the German big cities, the "size of our victory" should in the monumentality of new buildings and urban spaces reflect.
By the spring of 1941, 41 cities were included in the "remodeling program of the Führer", including the five "leader cities" that should be changed particularly complex:
Berlin and Nuremberg by Albert Speer, Hamburg by Konstanty Gutschow, Munich by Hermann Giesler and Linz by Roderich Fick. Thousands of architects, engineers, technicians, draftsmen and sculptors working in the planning staffs - in Berlin alone, there were at times over 1000, in Munich and Hamburg over 700 250 people.
The image of the city had changed significantly:

.......................

The day came to during the bombing disdain the historic structure was characterized at that time already in full scale from: The planners took no consideration, because their transformation projects required huge urban spaces that would have been to win by an appropriate demolition policy.
.......
Alone for the changing face of Berlin saw his rod before the destruction of 53 624 dwellings. Entire streets were razed 1939-1942 - although the British already flew massaged air attacks. In the words of the spear officials "facilitated" the British bomber, the demolition work by "valuable preparatory work for the purpose of reorganization" in other cities radical interventions were provided in the building structure. Cologne about a monumental axis cross in North-South and would East-West direction, the structure of the inner city changed completely. Munich should be entirely redesigned, monumental buildings. The plans, which would mean the end of historically grown urban culture in Germany, were to 1942 in full swing. But then destroyed, the Allied carpet bombing mass housing, and the targets of the Nazi city planners had to be forcibly changed.

................

As is known, was Hitler a technology fanatic who "novel materials such as steel, iron, glass and concrete" praised.
Cities should, however, be fundamentally transformed not only by representative Nazi architecture. The big city was the Nazis as a product of industrialization caused by faulty development, as a "pest on the folklore", "as a biological disease outbreak".
So was discussed since the seizure of power over the design of the big city particularly among ideological premises: the "healthy" rural-small urban life should be transferred to the city. The regime saw it as the basis for the desired population growth.
The NS-space planners had theses of the international debate over on the urban development of the future - from the idea of ​​the "garden city" to the concept of functional town of Le Corbusier. These ideas were aligned with the racial and population policy objectives: The Nazi housing policy would transfer a village-community life on "settlement cells" in a newly designed urban "living space".
......................

Parallel to the magnificent reconstruction of German cities should be set in motion a "housing program of the Führer": Propagated was now the industrial mass production of standardized dwellings - "for the masses", "with minimal" amount of work and material. " Thus, the model of the future Nazi big city was established at the beginning of the forties, which corresponded to the ideas of order of the regime. The "stone city" as an urban conurbation should be detached from the loosened, structured "urban landscape": In the city center, the representative monumental buildings of state and party including business centers. At the periphery of the multi-storey apartment for rent areas, which separated the industrial enterprises.
Hitler's architect for Hamburg, Konstanty Gutschow, developed in his master plan in November 1940, the concept of an "organic city landscape" for the first time for a big city: "No more like a pancake to the sea of ​​houses is spread over the area, but in well-ordered communities, which closed the village or small town of the same "- to order new" Community education of our people in line and his political restructuring ".

...................


From the planning staffs for the transformation of the cities were forced bars for reconstruction. The "Guidelines for the structural air abatement in town" wrote the affected cities as early as 1942 a "long-range design of the" cities and settlements "before. From the decentralized city, it was hoped that she would attack less space for air strikes offer than traditional city centers.
In October 1943, Hitler commissioned Albert Speer, prepare to rebuild the ruined cities of planning and organization.

.................

In his speech at the New Year's Day 1944, Hitler asserted that "two to three million homes a year after the war" would be built. Then he drowned, "We will build our cities more beautiful than they were before. Organized National Socialist People's State will have in a few years eliminates the traces of the war. From the ruins, a new German cities glory will blossom. "
His propaganda minister, told Hitler what he meant: "It is clear that can not our built in medieval old towns in large part for the modern transport are disrupted. A city like Magdeburg about no longer fits into the present day. Therefore, it may be regretted in view of the present, that the enemy makes us a preliminary work here; is for the future of it arise only blessing. "
The specifications of your "leader" took Hitler's architect to like. Speer put a "Task Force reconstruction planning", which would "use unique opportunity in the history of" the, "our German cities more beautiful and convenient rebuild."
Everything among German architects and city planners was anybody was involved in the course of the year 1944 in the task force - including planning experts such as Konstanty Gutschow, whose former employees Rudolf Hille Brecht and Wilhelm Wortmann, or Bauchef the German Labor Front, Julius Schulte-Frohlind . In the spring of 1945 came even later Federal President, Baurat Heinrich Lübke, the Task Force spear it.

The planners Gutschow and Hille Brecht made in early 1944 on a tour of 24 cities destroyed. Pleased They determined the wreckage everywhere confirmation for "leader" concept. Anyway, they wrote, would its reputation after city with dispersed structure, low population density and low-rise "by air war experience underlined as correct."
Speers organizing staff moved into a lufkriegssicheres barracks in Wriezen in Berlin in the summer of 1944. There was an interim report, which divided the planning responsibility for the reconstruction of the destroyed cities.
The result is a network that kept even after the war, and should make the reconstruction. Konstanty Gutschow about was provided by Speer for the planning of Hamburg, Kassel and Wilhelmshaven. The British, who had the Hamburg-experts first used in 1945 as head of the Hamburg Reconstruction and Rehabilitation Authority, dismissed him, although soon as politically charged. But the man came under elsewhere. For Friedrich Tamms, another member of the brown rod was allowed, 1948/49, create the redesign plan for Dusseldorf and then took Kostanty Gutschow together with a number of previous companions and the Rhine. One of them, Julius Schulte-Frohlind could even build the people of Düsseldorf in the fifties, the municipal administration building in classical style Nazi.
Especially for example, the vision of the Nazi town planner has been implemented in Hannover - no wonder, as there had been Rudolf Hillebrecht 1948 elected city building. Hille Brecht drew his former boss as a consultant Gutchow approach, and both were in the fifties Hannover build after the war developed in the ideas. The city on the leash was in the fifties as a model of a modern urban design.

Central Guide for the Urban Design of the postwar period was the former city architect of Szczecin, Hans Bernhard Reichow, published in 1948 book entitled "Organic City architecture. From the big city to city landscape "- then the adjusted version of a publication from the year 1941.Wurde" integrated urban landscape "in the volkstumspolitischen context, the Nazi terminology was now settled. From the "settlement cell" the concept of "neighborhood" was. Also that the public rental housing was carried out according to the standard norms of cheap mass production, "German Labor Front" in 1940 had formulated in their concept of "social housing".

At the end kept cities destroyer Hitler right in his prediction: "Berlin and Hamburg, Munich and Cologne, Kassel and all other large and small cities damaged we can hardly even recognize a few years after the war!"
But already attended Albert Speer men who shaped the reconstruction of the old Federal Republic, with its ideologically adjusted NS-urbanism concept in more details.
Hitler's prediction that cities would be "nicer built than they were before," did the ancient builders not fulfilled."
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Old June 20th, 2014, 08:53 PM   #1679
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Well, Nazism is a form of fascism and the idea of man in fascism is based on a totalitarian/hierarchical structured society. At the same time the economy is organised in a cooperative/hierarchical way.

It is cynical from our todays point of view, but it wasn't important how many victims died in the air raids, but that the armaments industry kept on running smoothly. All protection resp. entertainment of the population was done to keep the industry and the supply of the wehrmacht running.

Another important factor of fascism is an endowing culture, which bases on a mythic, ritual, symbolic and irrational "ersatz religion".

A good mean to create myths, rituals and symbols is architecture - that knew Adolf Hitler - he was very interested in art and architecture - he tried to study art in Vienna, but he wasn't accepted as student. Later he blamed that he wasn't allowed to study, because of the "jewish insider relationships"...

Hitler had a foible for architecture until his death - he was the dictator, who wanted to build an eternal memorial for him by changing the appearance of the cities. Therefore the destruction of the cities by the allied air raids could made it inevitable to do something in the cities as well as it could be used as a kind of "fairytale propaganda" like: "after we won the war we will make our cities more beautiful than Paris, London or New York"...

The Nazis planned in Hamburg a harbour silhouette, which should be a kind of Nazi Manhattan skyline - a skyscraper was planned as well as a suspension bridge

Here is a link to an article by the NDR (North German Broadcasting Corp.) - in German (but with some pics from a model, who Hamburg should have looked like): Hitler Hafen: Die Nazi-Pläne für Hamburg (Hitler's Harbour: The plans of the Nazis for Hamburg)
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Last edited by C.A.F.; June 21st, 2014 at 07:37 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #1680
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Another important factor of fascism is an endowing culture, which bases on a mythic, ritual, symbolic and irrational "ersatz religion".

Good heavens. Sounds like 21st century America.
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