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Old April 24th, 2015, 05:13 PM   #1721
erbse
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Berlin old town development next to the Palace - join the official discussion!

Redevelopment of Berlin's historical core / old town area
(Marx-Engels-Forum, Marienviertel, Molkenmarkt)

Until 18 May 2015, you can participate in the online discussion of the Berlin Senate!

http://stadtdebatte.berlin.de/


The site is in German, but comments in English are perfectly fine.

At this thread, the historical context and the urbanisation of the area is discussed (pro/contra reconstructions,
how to deal with the GDR fragments and the history of Berlin's historical core in general, etc.):
http://stadtdebatte.berlin.de/dialog...chte-des-ortes

Don't hesitate to join the discussion, it'll definitely get noticed by planners and the Berlin government!
I think it's all self-explanatory (or can be translated via Google etc.), but if you need some help, ping me.


Berlin's old town next to the "Imperial Forum" in 1930.

http://www.bilderbuch-berlin.net/Fot...und_dom_390202





After WW2

http://www.berliner-historische-mitte.de/

The vast deserted area nowadays:



/Public domain, Wiki Commons
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Old April 26th, 2015, 07:47 AM   #1722
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Zerbst Palace chapel, destroyed by Allied bombing in 1945.

(x)
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Old May 4th, 2015, 05:01 AM   #1723
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Tilsit, East Prussia


Tilsit - Hohe Straße by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Hohe Straße by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Rathausplatz by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Gericht by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Hohes Tor by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Deutsche Kirche by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Deutsche Straße by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Schenkendorfplatz by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Luisenbrücke by Kenan2, on Flickr


Tilsit - Schloss-Mühlen-Teich 1911 by Kenan2, on Flickr
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 09:28 PM   #1724
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I have some questions about Magdeburg. I know it was destroyed in The Sack of Magdeburg, but what after that? Was it rebuilt in the baroque style, was it still an important and big city, or, shortened, did its arhitectural value reach or even surpass that of medieval Magdeburg? I saw some photos of the prewar Magdeburg and it didn't look that much of a gem, but maybe I'm wrong..
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Old May 23rd, 2015, 08:30 PM   #1725
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Quote:
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I have some questions about Magdeburg. I know it was destroyed in The Sack of Magdeburg, but what after that? Was it rebuilt in the baroque style, was it still an important and big city, or, shortened, did its arhitectural value reach or even surpass that of medieval Magdeburg?
To begin with: destruction during 17th century wasn't as thorough as during modern-time wars, simply the technology wasn't so developed to make destruction total. And while Sack of Magdeburg was terrible (I read Schiller's description of it as a child and it scared me to hell), the fall of the city was much less dramatic and more stretched in time. It was simply the derivative of general collapse of Germany during and after 30-Years' War, with famine, diseases, harsh winters or witchhunt took more lives than dramatic battles and slaughters. So, while Magdeburg decrease its population probably to 1/5 (20 thousand to 4), it was the process that took 30 years to be completed.

It was rebuilt, but it didn't regain its position. In 1680 secularised former Archbishopric of Magdeburg was transferred to Brandenburg (later: Prussia) and became relative backwater of relatively poor (although highly effective, excellently managed and with great military prowess) state.

Magdeburg also didn't get very strong impulse for growth in the later years, contrary to, for example, Ruhr Valley or Upper Silesia, which flourished since Industrial Revolution or the capitals of terrritorial states in Germany (Munich, Karlsruhe), which took advantage of their kings/dukes investment spree

Still, today this city is doing fine. Maybe not a great metropolis, but quite nice place to live. How do Berliners say? "Arm aber sexy"
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Old May 23rd, 2015, 09:43 PM   #1726
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The technology of destruction might not have been as effective as today. In exchange buildings and houses were not very imperishable too. Most private profane buildings were built with wood and burned completely. The city had about 25-30.000 inhabitants before its destruction and was among the most powerful cities of the empire. Probably even the most important one in the northgerman East. Up to 20.000 people died. Thats huge. Only some hundred people lived in there afterwards. Magdeburg needed 200 years to reach its pre war population again.

Nevertheless, the city kept its structure and magnificent panorama of seven(!) twin-towered churches until 1945 (could been even longer if the communits had not intervened. Four are left today. The "Breiter Weg" was a pretty famous baroque street in pre war Germany.

around 1600



Merian, 1654


pre 1945
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Old May 23rd, 2015, 11:51 PM   #1727
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Thank you for your answers.

Magdeburg is a very interesting city, even though its "new" appearence is not that beautiful and inviting. I wish they didn't reject the plan for the reconstruction of the Ulrichskirche, the city would have been much nicer with its gothic spires...

Last edited by Titan Man; May 24th, 2015 at 02:43 AM.
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Old June 2nd, 2015, 12:30 PM   #1728
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Braunschweig (Brunswick),
preWW2 it was among Europe's most valuable old towns. One of the heaviest losses of human culture, ever. All images Public Domain.


Aerial view







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Old June 2nd, 2015, 12:31 PM   #1729
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More Braunschweig.









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Old June 21st, 2015, 10:57 PM   #1730
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It's painful just to look at them.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 07:50 AM   #1731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFM 3D View Post


Zerbst Palace chapel, destroyed by Allied bombing in 1945.

(x)
Good luck to the Zerbst Palace restoration trust...



http://www.schloss-zerbst-ev.de/html/start_e.htm
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Old July 22nd, 2015, 03:24 PM   #1732
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Absolutely beautiful photos. Thanks for sharing
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #1733
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So, I've been so utterly enamored by photos of the majestic timber-framed (late gothic?) Salzhaus (Salthouse) that was destroyed in Frankfurt during an air raid, that I had to register just to ask this question: Can anybody link me to a structure as similar and akin to the Salzhaus as possible? One requirement is that it must still exist in its original state, no reconstructions. I've been scouring this forum for buildings or houses that match the beauty and ornate style while conforming to the Harry Potter-esque non-geometrical and ornate style, paintings included, but haven't had much luck.

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Old July 28th, 2015, 11:07 AM   #1734
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The German Wikipedia page actually has a heading for 'similar buildings'. The bad news is that nothing quite like this building, which I agree is superb, seems to have survived to the present day. The good news is that some come close in 'ornateness', although I couldn't find anything quite as 'non-geometrical':

Large ornate buildings:

Haus Kammerzell, Strasbourg



Wedekindhaus, Hildesheim (reconstruction)

Smaller buildings with ornate woodwork:

Eickesches Haus, Einbeck


Killingerhaus, Idstein am Taunus
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Old August 16th, 2015, 11:16 AM   #1735
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The result of the reconstructions in Gdansk/Danzig and Wroclaw/Breslau

Gdansk/Danzig


Wroclaw/Breslau
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Old August 16th, 2015, 11:08 PM   #1736
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These kinds of thread are always more interesting, to me, if the pre-war photos are accompanied by present day views of the same scene, to show exactly how much survives. Also, if possible, by photos of the immediate aftermath of bombing, so it can be seen what was rebuilt, or what survived the bombing only to be lost due to modern 'redevelopment'. Nice to get that information, and the fuller story.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #1737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photodash View Post
These kinds of thread are always more interesting, to me, if the pre-war photos are accompanied by present day views of the same scene, to show exactly how much survives. Also, if possible, by photos of the immediate aftermath of bombing, so it can be seen what was rebuilt, or what survived the bombing only to be lost due to modern 'redevelopment'. Nice to get that information, and the fuller story.
Here you are - Danzig/Gdansk after the battle, 1945 (photos of utterly destroyed Marienburg/Malbork castle were already posted before). It was destroyed not just in bombing, but also in battle against attacking Soviet forces (the same applies to other cities turned into Festungen in 1945):







And here some statistical data regarding the condition of buildings in former German territories given to Poland after the end of WW2:

- Cities and towns (on average) were destroyed in 56%, villages were destroyed (on average) in 28%.

Some cities were destroyed even more, that applied mostly to large and medium cities subjected to bombings or turned into Festungen:

The following cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 70% or more during WW2:

- Breslau (Wrocław)
- Stettin (Szczecin)
- Danzig (Gdańsk)
- Leignitz (Legnica)
- Elbing (Elbląg)
- Landsberg an der Warthe (Gorzów Wielkopolski)

And these cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 50% or more during WW2:

- Oppeln (Opole)
- Stolp (Słupsk)
- Allenstein (Olsztyn)
- Koeslin (Koszalin)

Out of all large & medium towns in "Ziemie Odzyskane", just 1 remained practically undestroyed:

- Waldenburg (Wałbrzych)

But all those places - no matter how destroyed - were thoroughly robbed by special "booty-capturing" units of the Soviet Red Army.

All that captured booty from lands to be annexed by Poland was later transported to Mother Russia, rather to Poland.

=========================

Here is a comment that I got from a German user Grimald on another forum:

Quote:
the Polish rebuilding efforts are astonishing (albeit limited to just some city centers). In Germany, the ideology of breaking with the past and all architectural traditions prevented any serious rebuilding other than that of very few landmark buildings.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 10:08 PM   #1738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Some cities were destroyed even more, that applied mostly to large and medium cities subjected to bombings or turned into Festungen:

The following cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 70% or more during WW2:

- Breslau (Wrocław)
- Stettin (Szczecin)
- Danzig (Gdańsk)
- Leignitz (Legnica)
- Elbing (Elbląg)
- Landsberg an der Warthe (Gorzów Wielkopolski)
Keep in mind that these assessments were mostly based on lost value (like in real estate valuation). So, it didn't exactly meant that this part of city fabric was destroyed. Usually, the percentage of city fabric lost was lower, whereas all the municipal infrastracture was lost to the higher degree: bridges, water pumping, trams, electric power plants, gas plants and so on.

For example, Legnica lost 20% of its city fabric at most (unfortunately especially around Old Town).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
And these cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 50% or more during WW2:

- Oppeln (Opole)
- Stolp (Słupsk)
- Allenstein (Olsztyn)
- Koeslin (Koszalin)
Olsztyn is a good example: housing loss of value: 36%. Overall: 40%. Municipal infrastructure, especially in the centre: over 90% (train depot, bridges, electric station).

Again, it was loss of value. It was definitely easier to restore existing (although burnt/partially dismantled) electric station or train depot, than build it from the scratch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Out of all large & medium towns in "Ziemie Odzyskane", just 1 remained practically undestroyed:

- Waldenburg (Wałbrzych)
Plus Jelenia Góra (Hirschberg), Zielona Góra (Gruenberg), plus the famous Upper Silesian "Tricity": Gliwice, Zabrze, Bytom (a.k.a. Gleiwitz, Hindenburg O.S., Beuthen), all survived nearly intact. I say: nearly, before someone reminds burnt rent-houses in Beuthen's Old Market.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 03:59 PM   #1739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post

The following cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 70% or more during WW2:

- Breslau (Wrocław)
- Stettin (Szczecin)
- Danzig (Gdańsk)
- Leignitz (Legnica)
- Elbing (Elbląg)
- Landsberg an der Warthe (Gorzów Wielkopolski)

And these cities given to Poland in 1945 were destroyed in around 50% or more during WW2:

- Oppeln (Opole)
- Stolp (Słupsk)
- Allenstein (Olsztyn)
- Koeslin (Koszalin)

:
The percentages of destruction are often UNDER represented. The most frequently used calculations were usually the number of housing and commercial units rendered destroyed or heavily damaged versus prior to the war. Since cities expanded rapidly to outlying areas in the early 20th century, the outlying areas were often included in percentage calculations. The inner cities and the historic Altstadts were the target, usually, of the bombings, and these areas actually encompassed a relatively smaller percent of land cover/building units than the entire city limits. So when an Altstadt was nearly completely wiped out, the percentage it represented of the entire city was relatively low and hence misrepresented as a lesser-than-reality devastation.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 07:51 PM   #1740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
The percentages of destruction are often UNDER represented.
Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
The most frequently used calculations were usually the number of housing and commercial units rendered destroyed or heavily damaged versus prior to the war.
Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Since cities expanded rapidly to outlying areas in the early 20th century, the outlying areas were often included in percentage calculations.
Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
The inner cities and the historic Altstadts were the target, usually, of the bombings, and these areas actually encompassed a relatively smaller percent of land cover/building units than the entire city limits. So when an Altstadt was nearly completely wiped out, the percentage it represented of the entire city was relatively low and hence misrepresented as a lesser-than-reality devastation.
Partially true, because the closer to the city center, the higher level of destruction, but in most cases Old Towns weren't the only damaged areas.
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