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Old January 26th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #101
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Just becouse for you its a symbol of Warsaw doesn't mean that everybody is sharing your opinion or that it's some kind of obligatory point of view. Having a "Joseph Stalin Palace of Culture and Science" ( yes, thats a full name of it still engraved above the entrance. Would anybody like to have for example 'Adolf Hitler tower' to be the symbol of their city..?) with its enormous base creating undeveloped desert, blocking natural communication arteries etc for the last 60 years is not making it any better. Warsaw have many other true symbols and Im glad that Varso have such a great design that will enable it to be a centerpiece of Warsaw skyline. Sign of a new times.
Just becouse for you its NOT a symbol of Warsaw doesn't mean that everybody is sharing your opinion or that it's some kind of obligatory point of view.
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Old January 26th, 2017, 11:53 PM   #102
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Just becouse for you its a symbol of Warsaw doesn't mean that everybody is sharing your opinion or that it's some kind of obligatory point of view. Having a "Joseph Stalin Palace of Culture and Science" ( yes, thats a full name of it still engraved above the entrance. Would anybody like to have for example 'Adolf Hitler tower' to be the symbol of their city..?)
There are many people who consider Palace of Culture and Science a symbol of Warsaw. You seem to neglect the fact that the building has gained monument status based on its cultural and architectural value. Trying to discredit this value is to denial own historical legacy. The Palace is more Polish than Soviet. It was the Poles who decided about its height and who designed the interior: mural painting, furniture and ceramic glass chandeliers, among others, were designed by Polish artists. Also exterior design was inspired by Polish historical architecture. Polish starchitect Stefan Kuryłowicz once said: Palace of Culture and Science meets the conditions to be included in the register of monuments. Whether we like it or not it is a spatial icon of Warsaw.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 12:15 AM   #103
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Just becouse for you its a symbol of Warsaw doesn't mean that everybody is sharing your opinion or that it's some kind of obligatory point of view.
No opinion can be shared by everyone, especially on such a subjective issue but Pkin is well established as an Warsaw icon and one of the most recognizable buildings in Poland.


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Having a "Joseph Stalin Palace of Culture and Science" ( yes, thats a full name of it still engraved above the entrance. Would anybody like to have for example 'Adolf Hitler tower' to be the symbol of their city..?)
And Plac Piłsudskiego was known as Adolf Hitler Platz for a while, I don't really see your point. Nazi architecture is beautiful and impresive btw so it's a crappy argument.

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with its enormous base creating undeveloped desert, blocking natural communication arteries etc for the last 60 years is not making it any better.
What "natural" arteries? It's a massive building alright but it doesn't stand in the middle of the road or something so it doesn't affect communication in any significant way. As for the empty space it have nothing to do with the size of the base (without it it would be even more empty), but complicated legal situation of Parade Square (Plac Defilad).
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Old January 27th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #104
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Having a "Joseph Stalin Palace of Culture and Science" ( yes, thats a full name of it still engraved above the entrance.
Really?

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Old January 27th, 2017, 10:30 AM   #105
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There are many people who consider Palace of Culture and Science a symbol of Warsaw.
I think many of those people are foreigners, especially in the West. For them, the PCS has two advantages: it is big and "exotic". For me (I'm a local), Warsaw's primary symbol is the column of Poland's King Sigismund III Vasa. (Who was a half-Swede, by the way).

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You seem to neglect the fact that the building has gained monument status based on its cultural and architectural value. Trying to discredit this value is to denial own historical legacy. The Palace is more Polish than Soviet.
No, its structure and basic idea are eastern, Soviet/Russian, "Byzantine". In principle, alien to Polish tradition. Design details don't change that. It would never have been built, had Poland not fallen under the Soviet yoke after WW2.

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Stefan Kuryłowicz once said: Whether we like it or not it is a spatial icon of Warsaw.
True, that's exactly what it is: a spatial icon.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #106
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Symbol is not something you choose, things become symbolic for one reason or another. Just because you or someone else dislikes it, doesn't make it any less symbolic. Berlin Wall is a symbol even though it's history is even worse than Pkin. Should they demolish it completely then? Of course not.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 01:32 PM   #107
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Symbol is not something you choose, things become symbolic for one reason or another. Just because you or someone else dislikes it, doesn't make it any less symbolic.
I don't dislike the Palace of Culture and Science. I only explained that structurally/ideologically it's more Soviet than Polish, not the reverse.

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Berlin Wall is a symbol even though it's history is even worse than Pkin.
For me, Berlin's top symbol is the Brandenburg Gate.

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Should they demolish it completely then? Of course not.
Who said that the PCS should be demolished? Certainly I didn't.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 02:43 PM   #108
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I think many of those people are foreigners, especially in the West. For them, the PCS has two advantages: it is big and "exotic".
There is indeed a different approach to this building by Western tourists, they don't pay attention to modern glassy towers around the place, but are interested in the palace itself, which only proves its uniqueness. People who criticise the palace often forget that the Congress Hall in this building was a symbol of youth culture for generations of Polish young people. The ones who went to the gigs of Rolling Stones, King Crimson, Procol Harum in the sixties or who saw Kraftwerk and Dead Can Dance in the eighties, they really don't see it as a Stalin Palace.
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Originally Posted by Varsben
No, its structure and basic idea are eastern, Soviet/Russian, "Byzantine". In principle, alien to Polish tradition. Design details don't change that.
Soviet Palaces in Moscow built between 1947 and 1953 were influenced by America's early skyscrapers with a tower rising from a huge base: Wrigley Building in Chicago, Manhattan Municipal Building and Terminal Tower in Cleveland, so indirectly Palace of Culture and Science is a reference to that rather, than to Byzantine architecture. And of all Soviet scrapers of that time it has the best proportions making it look slender compared to them.
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Originally Posted by Varsben
It would never have been built, had Poland not fallen under the Soviet yoke after WW2.
MDM would have never been built as well which would be a pity.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #109
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Old January 28th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #110
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It seems that I have touched a very sensitive spot of the inner circle of Palace worshippers. Not everybody is following this religion. I know that there is a taboo on criticising this building on Polish forum not to even mention demolishing it but I'm not a big fan of dogmas and censorship.

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Originally Posted by AMS guy View Post
There are many people who consider Palace of Culture and Science a symbol of Warsaw. You seem to neglect the fact that the building has gained monument status based on its cultural and architectural value. Trying to discredit this value is to denial own historical legacy. The Palace is more Polish than Soviet. It was the Poles who decided about its height and who designed the interior: mural painting, furniture and ceramic glass chandeliers, among others, were designed by Polish artists. Also exterior design was inspired by Polish historical architecture. Polish starchitect Stefan Kuryłowicz once said: Palace of Culture and Science meets the conditions to be included in the register of monuments. Whether we like it or not it is a spatial icon of Warsaw.
Yep it gained monument status compeletly against the will of the great part of Polish architects and historians. It was a political decision. Experts from the Comitee of Architecture and Urbanism from Polish Academy of Sciences clearly stated: "Palace of Culture and Science in the sense of its concept is a negation of architectural rationality in all its aspects, especially: urban, technical, aesthetic, economic"
Historians from Jagiellonian University called it (PoCS monument status) a "black day of the Polish culture". "This decision means that the Palace will be covered by legal clause of inviolability. Monument of the USSR colonial architecture in the heart of Polish capital will for ever be the sign that the diabolical plan of Stalin and Molotov to sovietize the mentality of Polish people have succeeded"
What "value" of this building is part of "Polish histortical legacy"? Oh yes, Poles deciding about its height its the same kind of "success" as a slave deciding what will be the length of rope he will be hang on. Them "Polish" architects were so eager to deliver that they even designed a huge Stalin's monument which meant to stand at the front of the Palace. But that was too much even for communists that ruled Poland back then. Can our non-Polish friends imagine having a supertall hate preaching Al-Quaida mosque being built in the Ground Zero and becoming a symbol of New York or a German Victory Column in German death camp?

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And Plac Piłsudskiego was known as Adolf Hitler Platz for a while, I don't really see your point. Nazi architecture is beautiful and impresive btw so it's a crappy argument. What "natural" arteries? It's a massive building alright but it doesn't stand in the middle of the road or something so it doesn't affect communication in any significant way. As for the empty space it have nothing to do with the size of the base (without it it would be even more empty), but complicated legal situation of Parade Square (Plac Defilad).
Theres a huge difference between certain place being (temporary fortunately) renamed to suit the conquerors propaganda and building a totally new symbol of domination with a 'proper' name. Yes there is such thing as symbolic violence. Palace stands in the heart of the city, where natural communication arteries used to be. Even nowadays it still affects the city. Roads are cut in the middle by this building and surrounding 'square' which is empty becouse no one knows how to properly join this legally difficult, unmanagable and alien area with the rest of the city.

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Really?
Really

The original engraved name is now covered by that neon.

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Originally Posted by AMS guy View Post
There is indeed a different approach to this building by Western tourists, they don't pay attention to modern glassy towers around the place, but are interested in the palace itself, which only proves its uniqueness.
Most of the foreign tourists I met were asking 'why is this building still standing here?'

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Originally Posted by AMS guy View Post
People who criticise the palace often forget that the Congress Hall in this building was a symbol of youth culture for generations of Polish young people. The ones who went to the gigs of Rolling Stones, King Crimson, Procol Harum in the sixties or who saw Kraftwerk and Dead Can Dance in the eighties, they really don't see it as a Stalin Palace. Soviet Palaces in Moscow built between 1947 and 1953 were influenced by America's early skyscrapers with a tower rising from a huge base: Wrigley Building in Chicago, Manhattan Municipal Building and Terminal Tower in Cleveland, so indirectly Palace of Culture and Science is a reference to that rather, than to Byzantine architecture. And of all Soviet scrapers of that time it has the best proportions making it look slender compared to them. MDM would have never been built as well which would be a pity.
What an argument..Just becouse somebody had their first kiss in the Stalin's Palace means that its a great building and part of a heritage.. Really? American skyscrapers have as much in common with PoCS as soviet 'economy' with capitalism. And yeeey we have a soviet symbol of dominance but hey, at least it has the best proportions! You really cant see the difference between an apartment block and a Stalin's Palace built as a symbolic sign of dominance? Should we be grateful becouse commies built us some (terribly ugly) apartment blocks? Its not like they were the only ones knowing how to do that you know..

Im glad that Varso will be the centerpiece of Warsaw skyline. For now we cant demolish Palace of Culture but after Varso will be finished it will rightly take all the attention.
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Old January 28th, 2017, 08:51 PM   #111
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Palace is in disastrous condition
renovating would be ridiculously expensive
Even cleaning outside (once it was pure white) is too expensive
I cannot argue that it is somehow a symbol
but I wouldn't miss it much

its footprint is huge and could be organised better especially due to its location

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Old January 28th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Nahemah View Post
Palace is in disastrous condition
renovating would be ridiculously expensive
Even cleaning outside (once it was pure white) is too expensive
I cannot argue that it is somehow a symbol
but I wouldn't miss it much

its footprint is huge and could be organised better especially due to its location

The palace of culture and science may be historicly controversial but it is part of the history of poland. So it should remain to remind people of their history. Or should people also destroy all roman ruins in turkey, israel, germany etc? Because the romans were fighting and opressing them?
Should italy also destroy the colosseum in rome because catholic people were killed there by the romans?
Should we also destroy castle malbork near gdansk because it was built by the germans?
History should be kept for future generations and not be destroyed. The communist time was a part of polish history so it doesnt make sense to wipe that time out of peoples memories.
Adidionally the palace of culture and science adds a lot to the skyline. It is a unique building in a style which nobody would build nowdays. It wouldnt make sense to destroy it and replace it with modern high rise buildings. First of all there is a lot of space around it and in the surrounding areas with bare land waiting for developement.
Secondly putting modern high rise buildings is nothing special it can be found anywhere around the world. The palace of culture and science is unique and makes the skyline of warsaw special.
Ofcourse i would find it great if they would build 300m+ buildings around it because it is kind of a shame that none of the new high rise buildings is higher. But destroying it? Definitely no!
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Old January 29th, 2017, 12:31 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foster* View Post
Just becouse for you its a symbol of Warsaw doesn't mean that everybod[...]
Sound arguments have been listed. You seem to have a little problem with coming to terms with some parts of our history and elements of its architectural heritage. This is your right, we respect it, but not necessarily want to listen to it so I kindly suggest we carry the conversation about the Varso Tower. Smile
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Old January 29th, 2017, 04:15 AM   #114
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Yep it gained monument status compeletly against the will of the great part of Polish architects and historians. It was a political decision. Experts from the Comitee of Architecture and Urbanism from Polish Academy of Sciences clearly stated: "Palace of Culture and Science in the sense of its concept is a negation of architectural rationality in all its aspects, especially: urban, technical, aesthetic, economic"
While other experts, architects and historians, also from Polish Academy of Sciences, received the monument status of the Palace positively. The head of the Public Council for the Protection of Cultural Heritage called the Palace: An outstanding example of architecture of socialist realism, stating: Even in the former Soviet Union it is difficult to find objects of equally high quality.
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Originally Posted by Foster*
Can our non-Polish friends imagine having a supertall hate preaching Al-Quaida mosque being built in the Ground Zero and becoming a symbol of New York or a German Victory Column in German death camp?
It is not a good comparison. The Palace of Culture and Science is a controversial building, but it is functional. Many experts appreciated its functional quality.
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Originally Posted by Foster*
American skyscrapers have as much in common with PoCS as soviet 'economy' with capitalism.
Read some more stuff which can be easily found about similarities between America's early skyscrapers and Soviet Palaces. Of course they were built in completely different economic and political systems, but the idea behind these structures was similar: to make a statement and to express the power.

Terminal Tower Cleveland, 1930

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Old January 29th, 2017, 10:15 AM   #115
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We shouldn't feed the troll Let's concentrate on Varso!
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Old January 29th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #116
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I think many of those people are foreigners, especially in the West. For them, the PCS has two advantages: it is big and "exotic". For me (I'm a local), Warsaw's primary symbol is the column of Poland's King Sigismund III Vasa. (Who was a half-Swede, by the way).



No, its structure and basic idea are eastern, Soviet/Russian, "Byzantine". In principle, alien to Polish tradition. Design details don't change that. It would never have been built, had Poland not fallen under the Soviet yoke after WW2.



True, that's exactly what it is: a spatial icon.
Is this supposed to be hilarious, or? What does the Russian have common with the Byzantine? I mean yeah us - the people from the south of Europe gave them the letter and alphabet and stuff, because obviously their nature is only to destruct, or deconstruct. Just because of that "tiny" little element of the story, it does not mean we are similar or look alike. I was born on the south of Europe, my country has plenty of genuine Byzantine architecture, not some tacky golden domes. Please do not even try to put us in the same sentence with them again, learn more about the Byzantine. Once again I REPEAT, as a south European I have nothing common with those northern non-generic things/beings!
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Old January 29th, 2017, 01:08 PM   #117
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I like the design except the antenna. This seems to be a typical warsaw-thing ... some kind of a weird antenna-obsession

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Old January 29th, 2017, 01:48 PM   #118
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Sad, but true.
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Prędzej w morzu wyschnie woda,
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Old January 29th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #119
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I think it might be also money related decision. As a highest point in Warsaw area it'll be a very effective as a antennas holder. And it'll shorten coverage for C&SP.
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Old January 29th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #120
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Commerzbank Tower II
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