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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:00 PM   #2041
DZH22
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I feel like way too much emphasis is on 100 meter buildings. However, a 100 meter building is going to have pretty much zero impact on larger skylines. I think a better measure is to start at 150 meters (~500'), since those are the buildings that are actually going to be noticeable in the skyline.

Of course, I can see why Canadians always like to cite the 100 meter figure, since their cities measure up significantly better (especially Toronto and Vancouver) there than they do at the 150 meter mark. (except probably Calgary)
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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #2042
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100m is quite widely used benchmark, it has nothing to do with being from a specific country. If you want to lower the discussion by insulting people/questioning their objectivity go ahead, but I'll take no part of it.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #2043
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100m is quite widely used benchmark, it has nothing to do with being from a specific country. If you want to lower the discussion by insulting people/questioning their objectivity go ahead, but I'll take no part of it.
Sorry, I just saw that number thrown around a lot in all those threads that devolved into Toronto vs Chicago.

For example, by the end of this year Toronto will have approximately 180 buildings completed over 100 meters, but only 36 over 150 meters. For Chicago it looks like between 295-298 100 meter towers, (barely 50% more than Toronto) but 110 of them are over 150 meters.

On the other hand, Vancouver only has 2 over 150 meters (to the roof), but nearly 50 100 meter buildings. It looks like it's nearly the same size skyline as Calgary by the second total (just over 50), but Calgary boasts 15 structures over 150 meters, so you can see that the general level of the skyline is going to be much taller than Vancouver. (or take my own city, Boston, with just 43 over 100 meters to the roof, but 16 over 150)

It's not a bad number for smaller cities, but when we are talking cities like NY especially where the plateau is around 200+ meters, the number is really pretty worthless. I am not trying to start some shit-storm fight, so much as say that I think we should rely more on 150 meters for a more accurate look at bigger cities. (rather than just 100 meters or 200 meters)

A 100 meter building is not even noticeable from a few kilometers away, and 200 meters is too big a discrepancy from city to city. (Cleveland and Charlotte each have 3, Boston and San Francisco only have 2 each, Vancouver has 0, Montreal has 1, Los Angeles has 11... see what I mean?) Lastly, it's worth noting that 150 meters is very much in line with the most common US standard for tall buildings, 500' (152m).

Here's New York's expected end of year numbers to aspire to:
200+ meters: 54
150+ meters: 227
100+ meters: 690
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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #2044
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^

58 including topped out, 1 WTC, 4 WTC, One57, and 1715 Bway. Sorry had to.

Still waiting for another city in NA to separate itself from the pack for the #4 spot in the coming years. With everything U/C and proposed in Toronto, and where Chicago and NY are today, it's fair to say they'll remain in the top three in some order. But number four and beyond is still pretty murky.

Anyways, back to photos:

Dia D'Muerte

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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #2045
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^ And New York has more than 250 buildings over 500 feet completed and topped out, respectively. I think that number is even higher than Hong Kong's.

Don't know if these have been posted but they sure are amazing...

RBudhu

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Old January 29th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #2046
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In case my last post was a little too convoluted, the point I was trying to get at is that I think 150 meters should be the first number we look at as the new benchmark for the 21st century, and gives the most accurate view of a skyline. 100 meter, 200 meter, etc should be used as secondary numbers for cities such as Vancouver (tons of 100 meter) or LA (very tall, disproportionate amount of 200+ compared to its 150+) but 150 is a good number and the point where buildings really start to have a presence.


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^ And New York has more than 250 buildings over 500 feet completed and topped out, respectively. I think that number is even higher than Hong Kong's.
Didn't realize it was that high. I was going by this link, which I cut off for all buildings completed this year, and sorted by roof height. So if you factor in spires I guess you could be right. http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=57909653

I think Hong Kong is higher for the simple reason that many of these developments are 5-7 towers at a time that are mass produced, and should count separately for each tower instead of just one.

In terms of 4th skyline, I think it has to go to Panama City (the forgotten skyline) for sheer volume.

If we were to leave it out and say Central America isn't *really* North America... I would say it's a dogfight among Atlanta (seriously), Houston, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, Philadelphia, and Miami. Boston could get into the conversation if some of its larger (approved!) projects finally move forward. None of these cities have separated themselves from the pack.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 04:39 AM   #2047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
New York's skyline is double the size for starters. Chicago has a dynamite skyline, but its not in the same ball park size wise. People who view scale as one of the primary indicators are not going to put Chicago and New York in the same grouping.

# of 100m+ buildings in Chicago: 283
# of 100m+ buildings in New York: 558
Personally I don't see the logic in putting a huge emphasis on the quantity of buildings when comparing such large and dense skylines. When you look at the skyline if either city, there are so many buildings that you can't even see due to the intense layering, that the focus needs to be much more on the few tallest buildings, on the architectural quality, and the skyline layout.

In fact, when I look at picture of Chicago and a picture of Midtown Manhattan, they look the same size despite Midtown being so huge, simply because it's so thick that you need an aerial view to really see how much is there. Of course, NY also has Lower Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, etc. but it's hard to see those in a single view and Chicago has a more dramatic skyline for the moment due to all the peaks caused by the supertalls and the unique layout.

There's no competition as to which has the "biggest" skyline or the most impressive cityscape, but as for which has the "best" skyline, I change my mind every other day.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #2048
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Minneapolis

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Old January 29th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #2049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Sorry, I just saw that number thrown around a lot in all those threads that devolved into Toronto vs Chicago.
Alright. Let's move passed it.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #2050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Personally I don't see the logic in putting a huge emphasis on the quantity of buildings when comparing such large and dense skylines. When you look at the skyline if either city, there are so many buildings that you can't even see due to the intense layering, that the focus needs to be much more on the few tallest buildings, on the architectural quality, and the skyline layout.

In fact, when I look at picture of Chicago and a picture of Midtown Manhattan, they look the same size despite Midtown being so huge, simply because it's so thick that you need an aerial view to really see how much is there. Of course, NY also has Lower Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, etc. but it's hard to see those in a single view and Chicago has a more dramatic skyline for the moment due to all the peaks caused by the supertalls and the unique layout.

There's no competition as to which has the "biggest" skyline or the most impressive cityscape, but as for which has the "best" skyline, I change my mind every other day.
Those points are all valid, but double the size is quite a difference. Take Sydney, for example. It has lots of quality buildings, density, architectural interest, great layering, and a few landmarks that raise the whole skyline. That said, I just can't justify putting it in a top 10 because it's too small.

You're correct that at some point, big is just big but that's only true at close proximity. Pan out, and the scale of Manhattan puts it in another category. Chicago? It's big, but you quickly see it's expanse sharply give way to low rise.

My rebuttal was fueled mainly by your contention below. If one views scale the same way I've explained above, there is no doubt that New York has the better skyline. In the end, it all comes down to personal criteria of 'best'.

Quote:
There is a lot of debate over whether NYC or Chicago is better. There is actually intense competition; not sure how anyone could suggest there is none.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 10:37 PM   #2051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
A 100 meter building is not even noticeable from a few kilometers away, and 200 meters is too big a discrepancy from city to city. (Cleveland and Charlotte each have 3, Boston and San Francisco only have 2 each, Vancouver has 0, Montreal has 1, Los Angeles has 11... see what I mean?) Lastly, it's worth noting that 150 meters is very much in line with the most common US standard for tall buildings, 500' (152m).

Here's New York's expected end of year numbers to aspire to:
200+ meters: 54
150+ meters: 227
100+ meters: 690
I see your point, but every city is going to look better using one benchmark over another. The table you posted for New York is the preferable approach. More data is always more revealing than less. How far does one go though, 300m+?

We're likely getting to a point where 100m-200m is being viewed as filler and it's the 200m-600m buildings that matter most. A lot depends upon context. If we're talking about best north American skyline those shorter buildings still make an impact on one's decision. If we're compiling a world's best, we're really looking at 200m+ buildings, with everything shorter being filler.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:54 AM   #2052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
New York's skyline is double the size for starters. Chicago has a dynamite skyline, but its not in the same ball park size wise. People who view scale as one of the primary indicators are not going to put Chicago and New York in the same grouping.

# of 100m+ buildings in Chicago: 283
# of 100m+ buildings in New York: 558
But when you divide it into Lower and Midtown Manhattan everything changes. Midtown is the largest CBD in the U.S., The Loop (notice that everything North of the river, including Magnificent Mile is excluded) is 2nd, and Lower Manhattan is third. Now, think about how many residential skyscrapers and supertalls have been built in Chicago in the past decade (Trump, the Aqua, Park Tower, Legacy, 1 Museum Park, the Elysian, etc.) and how few there are in Lower Manhattan. Chicago has Lower Manhattan with ease. I imagine Chicago and Midtown are almost the exact same size now, but Midtown will outgrow it by 2020. Chicago can definitely compete. Not to mention Houston has more roof height supertalls completed than NY right now. How embarassing!
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #2053
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Lower Manhattan by itself beats every American skyline, except for Chicago's:


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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #2054
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Quote:
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Alright. Let's move passed it.
I'm sorry about the brusque manner that I originally tried to make my point. I think it is a valid one, but I also should have been a little more tactful and less confrontational.

I think the best comparison I can make is I went to Toronto in 2002 (before the boom) and didn't find it's skyline more impressive than Boston's despite its superior height and a notably higher quantity of 100 meter buildings (approx 75 to 40). I felt like the skyline dropped off too fast; "officially" (with spires) at the time it had 12 150 meter buildings, including CN Tower, to Boston's 17. I wasn't really considering Toronto's glut of buildings in the 100-120 meter range as having any skyline impact at all. I guess a lot of it is just what you are used to or grow up with. Obviously, since then Toronto has surpassed Boston, and many other comparable sized cities, by leaps and bounds!


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Chicago can definitely compete. Not to mention Houston has more roof height supertalls completed than NY right now. How embarassing!
To be fair, New York had 2 of the tallest, most impressive structures on Earth destroyed in an attack. This loss is completely unprecedented and the main reason why NY's skyline has seemed less impressive throughout the last decade. We are talking 2700' worth of 2 buildings. If we took the 2 tallest buildings out of Houston's core downtown (Chase and Wells Fargo) it wouldn't be as impressive of a skyline either, and that's not even a comparable amount of loss!

I have basically given NYC a mulligan until it has replaced the towers. I think once 1 and 4 are completely finished, although they aren't a full replacement, I will feel comfortable fairly judging this skyline again. I also think that in 2 years from now, there will no longer be a debate between NYC and Chicago for the foreseeable future.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #2055
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I guess a lot of it is just what you are used to or grow up with.
That's quite true. Coming from London, Toronto and Montreal constituted my first introduction to a big north American city (around 1981) and my first real look at skyscrapers. Europe had nothing to speak of back then.

Toronto's bank towers impressed me while Montreal still felt big despite not having anything tall like Toronto. My ideas about north American cities were largely formed by my experiences with these 2 places. I suppose if I had familiarity with Boston I would have gone through the same thought process as you and started differentiating between a 100m building and one at 150m.

Honestly, I don't know Boston other than through SSC and its one of those skylines that lives in the shadow of others... especially for some one not from the United States. I don't think Canadians give Boston's skyline much thought due to New York, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc.

Montreal, on the other hand, gets the light shone on it quite brightly by Canadians due to its status in our country (still accounts for 12% of the national population), history, urbanity, and its old building stock. Despite being smaller than Toronto, Montreal has 200 years of privilege, establishment, and wealth behind it. Montreal enjoys a halo effect, to some degree.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 08:28 PM   #2056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That's quite true. Coming from London, Toronto and Montreal constituted my first introduction to a big north American city (around 1981) and my first real look at skyscrapers. Europe had nothing to speak of back then.

Toronto's bank towers impressed me while Montreal still felt big despite not having anything tall like Toronto. My ideas about north American cities were largely formed by my experiences with these 2 places. I suppose if I had familiarity with Boston I would have gone through the same thought process as you and started differentiating between a 100m building and one at 150m.

Honestly, I don't know Boston other than through SSC and its one of those skylines that lives in the shadow of others... especially for some one not from the United States. I don't think Canadians give Boston's skyline much thought due to New York, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc.

Montreal, on the other hand, gets the light shone on it quite brightly by Canadians due to its status in our country (still accounts for 12% of the national population), history, urbanity, and its old building stock. Despite being smaller than Toronto, Montreal has 200 years of privilege, establishment, and wealth behind it. Montreal enjoys a halo effect, to some degree.
Interesting story, explains a lot actually. I'm born and raised in Hong Kong, so I guess that's why I'm destined for being a sucker of big, dense skylines. Growing up in a skyscraper forest makes you kind of an ignorant regarding small skylines, or cities for that matter.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:01 PM   #2057
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We're all a product of circumstance and experience. One thing is constant: the more I explore the world the clearer everything gets, but the more divergent my views become from locals.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:41 AM   #2058
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Old January 31st, 2013, 02:22 AM   #2059
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Quote:
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100m is quite widely used benchmark, it has nothing to do with being from a specific country. If you want to lower the discussion by insulting people/questioning their objectivity go ahead, but I'll take no part of it.
There is some merit to what he says. Its one of the reasons why for as absolutely unending and massive Sao Paulo high rises go on for seemingly ever it is rarely ever considered amongst peoples top skylines. I think its particularly true if such highrises are scattered away from the CBD which tend to lessen the visual effect.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 03:11 PM   #2060
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