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Old May 12th, 2013, 07:21 AM   #2281
QuantumX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
London, Moscow, and Sydney are building a lot too, but according to the resource below Miami will still be ahead of those 3 if the proposals (150m+ buildings) on the table in each city get built. You're right about Istanbul though. It would be ahead of Miami.


http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/
It's really hard to know what's happening in a city unless you actually live there. I know for a fact that there are projects under construction here in Miami that aren't listed on these lists, let alone more that are approved and proposed that aren't listed here. We don't really know how this is all going to come out in the wash until it actually gets built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
I feel like in cases such as Moscow, you have to step back and say "Hey, Moscow has a ton of supertalls and maybe that should weigh a little bit more heavily." Here's a combination of Moscow and Miami including everything built, U/C, and proposed.

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=59314441

The difference at the top is that much larger when we remove proposed

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=59314449
As far as what you consider is a better or best skyline, you can factor in whatever you want, but Miami is statistically ranked 3rd largest in the U.S. even though several U.S. cities have buildings that are taller (just about all of which you named earlier) because it has more tall buildings over all. Two buildings over 500 feet tall equal a supertall and three buildings over 400 feet tall equal a supertall. That is how things are counted statistically, depending on where you want to start counting. A 100 meter building is roughly 328 feet tall. I think most people, such as Isaidso, would agree that a 400 feet tall building is a tall building. Miami has a preponderance of those. I prefer the New York standard of 500 feet plus equals a tall building. That why I really don't like any South American skylines and hate whenever a new building here in Miami doesn't break 500 feet. We have enough in the 400 feet and up range.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #2282
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Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
I feel like in cases such as Moscow, you have to step back and say "Hey, Moscow has a ton of supertalls and maybe that should weigh a little bit more heavily." Here's a combination of Moscow and Miami including everything built, U/C, and proposed.
Agree. Data is only as valuable as one's understanding of what it conveys. That point gets lost on many people. # of 150m buildings indicates just that, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #2283
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Originally Posted by QuantumX View Post
It's really hard to know what's happening in a city unless you actually live there. I know for a fact that there are projects under construction here in Miami that aren't listed on these lists, let alone more that are approved and proposed that aren't listed here. We don't really know how this is all going to come out in the wash until it actually gets built.
That's very true of one's understanding of a place in general. I've never been to Miami, Vancouver, etc. My views are based on photos, data, research, etc. One never gets a true sense until one visits and stays in a place for a considerable amount of time.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That's very true of one's understanding of a place in general. I've never been to Miami, Vancouver, etc. My views are based on photos, data, research, etc. One never gets a true sense until one visits and stays in a place for a considerable amount of time.
I've been to Vancouver, btw. Too many short condos for me to rate its skyline highly, but man what a spectacular setting. If the skyline matched the setting, it would probably be my # 1. Meanwhile, here in Miami, I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas with all that is planned. In my case, that would be Christmas 2020.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 08:39 AM   #2285
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Originally Posted by QuantumX View Post
I've been to Vancouver, btw. Too many short condos for me to rate its skyline highly, but man what a spectacular setting. If the skyline matched the setting, it would probably be my # 1. Meanwhile, here in Miami, I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas with all that is planned. In my case, that would be Christmas 2020.
I agree with you about Vancouver. It's almost like they're so mesmerized by the setting that they forgot to build beautiful buildings. There's a decent inventory of buildings built before 1985, but the skyline is overwhelmed by short, sterile, cookie cutter glass condos. I can't think of anything more insipid.

I actually read an article by Vancouver urban planners that suggested that buildings should be made to look as invisible as possible so as to not take away from the natural scenery. These are not people that see buildings as beautiful, but an unfortunate necessity to be hidden if at all possible.

That's as absurd as arguing that art shouldn't be beautiful because it might distract from the walls of the gallery. Shocking really. How do people like this hold positions of influence and power?
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Old May 13th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #2286
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This held back San Francisco for a long time. Urban planners didn't want too many tall buildings blocking the views of the bay. For instance, the Transamerica Pyramid was originally planned to be 1,150 feet tall, but got chopped down for that reason. Now urban planners are beginning to realize that there is no place to go but up if the city is to grow. If it weren't for so much NIMBYism, who knows what San Francisco might have looked like today?

Miami looks the way it does today largely because of anti-development sentiment on Miami Beach. South Beach could have looked like Australia's Gold Coast, but again, the NIMBYs put a stop to that. Fortunately, it was to the benefit of the City of Miami because developers then started to look across the bay where they could build pretty much whatever they wanted because the city was flat broke at the time. We needed the money.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 10:47 AM   #2287
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You gotta love these people who live in big cities, but don't actually like most of the things that come with a big city like skyscrapers, noise, crowds, etc. If you want views of nature, move to the country.

It's also rich how these people don't like certain things then think they have the right to deny it to everyone else as well. I can't figure out if they're control freaks or all Communists/Fascists?
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Old May 14th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #2288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You gotta love these people who live in big cities, but don't actually like most of the things that come with a big city like skyscrapers, noise, crowds, etc. If you want views of nature, move to the country.
Welcome to Boston (at least we beat the Leafs). Our 4 tallest buildings have remained the same since the 1970's, and 7 tallest since the 1980's. There is a TON of filler lately, but none of it has topped 100 meters and I feel like it actually makes the main skyline look smaller. Stumpy buildings stumpifying the city. This is supposed to finally change soon, but I have been saying that for years so I'll believe it when I see it...

Oh yeah let's get back to that 150 meter "discussion" for a minute. There are some cities that are so large (such as New York) where I believe 150 meters doesn't even really matter anymore. For instance, you could build 100 new buildings in NYC over 150 meters, but if none of them topped ~180 meters I would argue it wouldn't make a dent in the skyline. On the other hand, every supertall is able to break the plateau and 10 supertalls would make 100x the difference of 100 150 meter buildings.

Kind of the same thing, on a much smaller scale, with Miami. You have the mass, but you don't have the height to match most of the cities in your (skyline)-size range. Also, don't a bunch of your points come from Sunny Isles, which is 5+ miles down the road?

Also, 2 buildings over 500' or 3 buildings over 400' do NOT equal a supertall!!! NO NO NO NO WAY!!!!! First of all, the main site we seem to agree on in the rankings doesn't include the first 90 meters of a building. http://tudl0867.home.xs4all.nl/skylines.html
So if you want to compare a 150 m building to a 300 m building, you are getting 60 points for the 150 m and 210 points for the 300 m. That means the supertall is worth 3.5 of the 150 m.
Second, here's a very easy way of looking at it. Let's take Toronto or Miami. Now I will give you 3 buildings that are, say, 400'-450' tall, and you can put them wherever you want in the city. Any noticeable changes? Can you even see these buildings? Did they take your skyline to the next level? Now let's replace these with one building ~1100'. Does THIS make an impact on your skyline? Would you say the impact of this one building is less than the impact of the 3, because their total heights add up to 100'-200' higher? Supertalls are the way of separating the wheat from the chaff, or whatever random analogy you want to use. 1-2 supertalls don't equal a skyline, but supertalls within an already established skyline really take it to the next level.

The argument you use against Vancouver (valid) is the same argument I would use against Miami when pitting it against taller (but statistically smaller) cities such as Moscow and Melbourne. Take the picture below. I count 6 buildings that are taller than anything in Miami, and 2 more that are about equal with Miami's tallest. I also consider these designs to be far superior than anything built in Miami's 15 year (or however long) boom. In fact, the tallest building built in your boom is one of the biggest pieces of garbage buildings I have ever seen, and a key piece of evidence in my next point: that it's not all about quantity. http://www.emporis.com/building/900b...y-miami-fl-usa

Quote:
Originally Posted by human187 View Post
And a wide one:
Quantity is important (that and density are my 2 biggest pro-Boston arguments) but let's not forget other factors such as design, height, variety, (hey Toronto, looking at you here, less blue-glass Vancouver emulation please!) proximity, quality, and of course density which I mentioned. This is why most people aren't ranking Miami 5th (or Panama City 4th) because we feel that they are subpar in certain areas and that other skylines are strong enough in other areas to overcome their lesser quantities. It's why cities like San Francisco and Boston often get slotted behind smaller skylines like Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Seattle...

Anyway, that oughta be enough fuel to keep y'all busy for a while!

Here's a parting gift/(shot)... my second favorite skyline in the south, behind Houston! It's got height, quality design/materials, and beautiful spires!

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Old May 14th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #2289
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Welcome to Boston (at least we beat the Leafs).
If the Jays are first in the American League East at the end of the regular season, we'll be even.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 11:45 PM   #2290
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Kind of the same thing, on a much smaller scale, with Miami. You have the mass, but you don't have the height to match most of the cities in your (skyline)-size range. Also, don't a bunch of your points come from Sunny Isles, which is 5+ miles down the road?
Nah, I don't think Sunny Isles Beach is counted as part of Miami's tally. Some sources do include Miami Beach though, which only has two buildings over 500 feet tall compared to the eight that Sunny Isles Beach currently has with 600 footers on the rise even as we speak.

You're not telling us anything that we don't already know. I know people criticize the Miami skyline for the same reasons I criticize Vancouver. I absolutely hate everytime they put up another new condo in the 400-500 feet height range, but thank God I have a lot more to look forward to. We have good mass as you said, but the height is on the way. If you don't like the fact that Miami is now ranked the 3rd largest skyline in the U.S. (not 3rd best), then go argue with the statisticians and how they count this stuff and argue at what point a tall building is tall enough to be counted as part of the skyline.

We were just as surprised as anybody that we were now ranked 3rd, but I knew it before I ever saw it or heard it from anywhere else by doing the numbers myself using the World Almanac criterion of 400 feet tall and up. I was shocked because I wasn't expecting the result I got. It was just an intellectual exercise for me. Then, other sources verified it.

We're not telling you how we count things. We're telling you how the statisticians who count this stuff count things. If you prefer things to be a certain way, fine. Don't argue with us. Argue with them.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:45 AM   #2291
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Nah, I don't think Sunny Isles Beach is counted as part of Miami's tally. Some sources do include Miami Beach though, which only has two buildings over 500 feet tall compared to the eight that Sunny Isles Beach currently has with 600 footers on the rise even as we speak.
You're right. In fact, Sunny Isles ranks 87th in the world, and just passed San Diego! That's pretty impressive. In fact, since the rankings are still from 2012, I think it just passed Charlotte.

I'm not arguing that Miami isn't the biggest statistically. I'm just arguing that statistics do not tell the entire story regarding the impact of a skyline. It's a good jumping off point but not a definitive way to rank skylines in a subjective thread like this one. It really depends on whether one favors quantity most, or density, quality, height, design, proximity, physical features, overall layout, landmark buildings, etc etc etc. I would say that the Miami Tower is a better building for the city than either 900 Biscayne Bay or the Marquis, even though it is technically worth less "points" according to statisticians. A high quality supertall will jump Miami much further in these subjective rankings (ie all our personal rankings on this site) than it will improve it statistically. For me it is one of those lurking skylines and I look forward to seeing it take that next step. Is that supertall supposed to start construction anytime soon?
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Old May 15th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #2292
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You're right. In fact, Sunny Isles ranks 87th in the world, and just passed San Diego! That's pretty impressive. In fact, since the rankings are still from 2012, I think it just passed Charlotte.

I'm not arguing that Miami isn't the biggest statistically. I'm just arguing that statistics do not tell the entire story regarding the impact of a skyline. It's a good jumping off point but not a definitive way to rank skylines in a subjective thread like this one. It really depends on whether one favors quantity most, or density, quality, height, design, proximity, physical features, overall layout, landmark buildings, etc etc etc. I would say that the Miami Tower is a better building for the city than either 900 Biscayne Bay or the Marquis, even though it is technically worth less "points" according to statisticians. A high quality supertall will jump Miami much further in these subjective rankings (ie all our personal rankings on this site) than it will improve it statistically.
What we need here in Miami is something like the 3 tallest in Atlanta, Houston, and Philadelphia. We already have the mass with more massiveness under construction right now even as we speak with Brickell Citycentre and Brickell House.

The Falcone group behind Miami World Center keeps buying up more property as if they are serious about going forward with that particular project. That's all the land behind the four giant condos across from the American Airlines Arena that you see during all the Heat games. That is another huge project that will add a lot of mass, height, and density all at once just like Brickell Citycentre, in an area that very badly needs to be developed.

The Genting group out of Malaysia is still going to build a giant condo complex even without the casino bill passing. They plan to demolish the Miami Herald building at the end of this year.

There is a hell of a lot planned. We just can't tell at this point what will make it and what won't, but I think the Miami skyline will get a lot more than what we're seeing now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
For me it is one of those lurking skylines and I look forward to seeing it take that next step. Is that supertall supposed to start construction anytime soon?
Our first supertall is now planned to start construction in 2016. The same family of developers that are behind the supertall are planning to start construction on an 851-feet tall condo off Brickell Avenue this summer called Panorama Tower. That will be our new tallest. Then, they plan to start on the supertall, One Bayfront Plaza, after they complete Panorama Tower.

The Hollos have been been part of the Miami landscape for decades now, specifically the father, Tibor Hollo. He himself has said that he wanted One Bayfront Tower to be his legacy as he and his sons know that the city needs a signature tower to increase its stature as well as a new tallest, so we think they are going to make this happen. They know how important this is to the city.

Echo Brickell is selling like hotcakes and will probably go from 750 feet in its height specification to over 800 feet.

Banco Santander originally planned at 840 feet I've heard might even go to 950 feet, but the economy in Spain is what's got that project on hold from what I hear.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #2293
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Toronto

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Rooftop Ambition by Jack Landau, on Flickr

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Ferry Ride by Jack Landau, on Flickr

If it had a bit more height variation and a bit less boring looking towers it would probably be one of my favourite skylines in the whole northeastern part of North America
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Old May 15th, 2013, 11:18 PM   #2294
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Vancouver

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Downtown Vancouver from Burnaby Mountain by Patrick Lundgren - AirTeamImages, on Flickr


by Björn Grützmann http://www.******************/search...splay=30949848
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Old May 16th, 2013, 04:21 AM   #2295
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Mexico City

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Si se puede... aqui ta'
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desde la Latinoamericana con Photoshop para eliminar algo de contaminación
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Old May 16th, 2013, 04:42 AM   #2296
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This first shot was done by Ross Cobb, king of Miami aerials. The second is an oldie of mine. I posted both to show the density and massivenss the Miami skyline is beginning to take on.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/...7b4d909e_o.jpg
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Old May 16th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #2297
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Here are two of mine that I gave the B&W treatment because they seemed to lend themselves well to that.

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CSC_2428 by QuantumX, on Flickr

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CSC_2430 by QuantumX, on Flickr
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Old May 17th, 2013, 04:47 AM   #2298
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Very nice.

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Toronto by imcconac, on Flickr


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what.we.have.done by jonathancastellino, on Flickr
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Old May 23rd, 2013, 12:20 PM   #2299
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Found in the 1WTC thread, originally posted by OnePointWest:

Charles Zhang

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Old May 25th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #2300
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Riverdale by Jack Landau, on Flickr
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