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Old March 25th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #3341
DZH22
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One North American city that doesn't have density problems outside of the core... Boston
(I would also add NYC, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Montreal, and Baltimore to the short list)



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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:15 PM   #3342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
One North American city that doesn't have density problems outside of the core... Boston
(I would also add NYC, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Montreal, and Baltimore to the short list)
There are lots besides those.

Foreigners see a big drop off from the central core and what's beyond and erroneously conclude that it's all low rise suburbia. In many cases, it just looks sparse in comparison to the downtown cluster. In reality, there's good density for quite a distance. It's just 3-10 floors instead of 30-80 floors.

Montreal

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Montréal by Jean-Michel Villanove on Flickr

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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:32 PM   #3343
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There are lots besides those.
Yes, but I would put those as the top 6, top tier dense (big) cities. Add Mexico City too, which I tend to forget is even part of North America!

Second tier would probably be.... Pittsburgh, Seattle, Washington DC (no real skyline so doesn't *really* fit), ummmm.... I don't know.

Also under consideration... Toronto, Vancouver, Chicago, and maybe Detroit? KC? Cincinnati? Milwaukee? Minneapolis?

However, anything outside the top tier is going to water down the list and play to the arguments of foreigners.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #3344
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Both photos and data would suggest that Toronto is denser than Boston. Vancouver might be as well. These 2 also have high rise clusters throughout their urban footprint.

Boston's central city is 232 sq km, has 636,479 people, and a density of 2,743 people sq km. Toronto's central city is 630 sq km, has 2,791,140 people, and a density of 4,430 people sq km. Not only is Toronto denser, but over an area almost 3 times the size. As a point of reference, New York City is 786 sq km, has 8,336,697 people, and a density of 10,606 people sq km. Vancouver is 115 sq km, has 603,502 people, and a density of 5,248 people sq km.

Boston has good density beyond the downtown core, but you're discounting what exists in quite a number of other cities. 7 km north of the lake, you'll still find this type of density in Toronto:

image hosted on flickr

TTC Near Eglinton by beinntoaig, on Flickr

3 km to the east of the CN Tower the density is still quite good. It's the same to the west of the CN Tower for a good 4 km or a 7 km stretch.

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King & River par pəruse, sur Flickr

10 km east of the CN Tower the density is considerably lower, but still decent:

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Fireball by woodrow walden, on Flickr
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #3345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Both photos and data would suggest that Toronto is denser than Boston. Vancouver might be as well. These 2 also have high rise clusters throughout their urban footprint.

Boston's central city is 232 sq km, has 636,479 people, and a density of 2,743 people sq km. Toronto's central city is 630 sq km, has 2,791,140 people, and a density of 4,430 people sq km. Not only is Toronto denser, but over an area almost 3 times the size. As a point of reference, New York City is 786 sq km, has 8,336,697 people, and a density of 10,606 people sq km. Vancouver is 115 sq km, has 603,502 people, and a density of 5,248 people sq km.
Boston is 48 square miles, or 124 square km. That would put its density over 5000 people per sq km. Unless, of course, you think it's fair to measure the water area as well, which makes up about half of Boston's total area? (ocean, river, etc)

Boston's inner ring suburbs are denser than Boston itself. Somerville (the densest) is over 7200. Just saying.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #3346
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Wherever you are from, this is probably denser than your city

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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:25 PM   #3347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Boston is 48 square miles, or 124 square km. That would put its density over 5000 people per sq km. Unless, of course, you think it's fair to measure the water area as well, which makes up about half of Boston's total area? (ocean, river, etc)

Boston's inner ring suburbs are denser than Boston itself. Somerville (the densest) is over 7200. Just saying.
The City of Toronto includes tons of water and parkland as well. If you want to use a smaller catchment area, Toronto could too. The 'Old City of Toronto' is 97 sq km and has about 800,000 people today or 8,250 people sq km.

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Wherever you are from, this is probably denser than your city
That looks good, but it's not denser than where I live. My census tract was 24,333 people sq km in 2011, the next one over was 25,916 people sq km in 2011, the next one was 30,148 people sq km in 2011 .... and no that's not a typo. I think you'll find Toronto is denser which ever way you want to slice it. I live in this frame and none of the census tracts I mentioned includes that tall condo under construction.


Courtesy of Razz
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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:59 PM   #3348
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On the other hand, defining density solely by population doesn't tell the whole story. Look at the main core of Toronto, aka the area surrounding FCP/Scotia Plaza. Would you say that it lacks density due to containing giant office towers and not residentials?

If you took 1000 people, and stuck them into a skyscraper that was otherwise in the middle of a field, would that area have the same "density" as a jam packed lowrise area that also contains 1000 people?

Please show me the numbers that prove the 63k/km. I have not been able to find corroborating evidence for this claim. Are there actually 63,000 people in that square km, or are you basing this off of extrapolating a much smaller area?
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #3349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
On the other hand, defining density solely by population doesn't tell the whole story. Look at the main core of Toronto, aka the area surrounding FCP/Scotia Plaza. Would you say that it lacks density due to containing giant office towers and not residentials?

If you took 1000 people, and stuck them into a skyscraper that was otherwise in the middle of a field, would that area have the same "density" as a jam packed lowrise area that also contains 1000 people?
Those are valid points. The Toronto CBD is one of the least dense neighbourhoods in the core. It does lack a large residential population, but it's also registering one of the biggest spikes in residential population in the whole metropolitan area.

Trump, L Tower, and Shangri-La were the first major residential towers built in the CBD in years, but will be joined by INDX and 88 Scott... currently under construction. Massey Tower, 2 Queen West, and Yonge + Rich will likely break ground this spring/summer. In Southcore, Toronto's new CBD, the residential population will likely hit 20,000 people within a few years. In that area directly north of the CN Tower, roughly 30 condo towers are rising to compliment an already substantial residential population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Please show me the numbers that prove the 63k/km. I have not been able to find corroborating evidence for this claim. Are there actually 63,000 people in that square km, or are you basing this off of extrapolating a much smaller area?
Shit, I mixed up sq km and sq mile so I'll fix the above post. Sorry about that.

The data is from Statistics Canada. Census tracts are very small, but when you combine 3-4 adjacent tracts you start to see that the density is consistently high where I live. You can google 'Statistics Canada Census Tract 5350066.00' and you should get a quite detailed analysis. Below I've listed my census tract followed by the next 2 over.

Census Tract 5350066.00 bounded by Jarvis, Wellesley, Parliament, and Carlton contained 8,030 people in 2011. Its area is 0.33 sq km giving it a population density of 24,333 people/sq km or 63,039 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 6,965
2006: 7,120
2011: 8,030

Census Tract 5350063.01 bounded by Yonge, Bloor, Church, and Carlton contained 8,293 people in 2011. Its area is 0.32 sq km giving it a population density of 25,916 people/sq km or 67,140 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 6,846
2006: 7,299
2011: 8,293

Census Tract 5350063.02 bounded by Church, Bloor, Jarvis, and Carlton contained 6,934 people in 2011. Its area is 0.23 sq km giving it a population density of 30,148 people/sq km or 78,104 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 5,494
2006: 6,098
2011: 6,934

As Somerville (75,754 people) is 10.9 sq km you'd need to string together about 35 adjacent census tracts to get a similarly sized area. There's really no other way to find a comparably sized area in Toronto. Census tracts are the best way to go, but takes a lot of work to tabulate. It's also tricky picking tracts that form a compact block that makes sense.
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I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #3350
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1 square mile = 2.59 square km, so definitely a bit of an error there!

Look at Boston on this link. It has a tract with 110,000 people per square mile, one of only 4 US cities to have an area this dense.
http://beyonddc.com/?p=4808
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:54 PM   #3351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
1 square mile = 2.59 square km, so definitely a bit of an error there!
Yep, a big error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Look at Boston on this link. It has a tract with 110,000 people per square mile, one of only 4 US cities to have an area this dense.
http://beyonddc.com/?p=4808
Thanks for the link. 110,000 people/sq mile is very dense. We have a few crazy bits like that as well. St. Jamestown just a few blocks northeast of me is the densest tract in Canada. A new proposal (7 tower 1 Yonge) southwest of the CBD will become the densest in Canada if it gets built. Here's a rendering of it:


http://www.toronto.ca/planning/lower...1and7yonge.htm

St. Jamestown: Census Tract 5350065.00 bounded by Bloor, Parliament, Wellesley, and Sherbourne contained 13,974 people in 2011. Its area is 0.23 sq km giving it a population density of 60,756 people/sq km or 157,399 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 16,225
2006: 14,666
2011: 13,974

As you can see, its density is declining. That's a rarity in Toronto, but it seems to have stabilized. There are plans to build quite a few new towers in this census tract so its population density could spike back up to about 200,000 people/sq mile if it all gets built.

http://geodepot.statcan.gc.ca/GeoSea...2&boundaryType
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World's 1st Baseball Game: June 4th, 1838, Beachville, Ontario, Canada
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I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:23 PM   #3352
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I will admit that I am still impressed with Toronto's density, even if I knew that your initial numbers looked a bit preposterous.

I think the other main difference (density-wise) between Boston and Toronto is the way that the cities were constructed. Boston had over half a million people by/before 1900, and had much of the city's footprint developed prior to cars, subways, and other motorized means of transporation. Thus, the city seems to be as slammed together as humanly possible, with the density emanating out of the core in all (land) directions. It is one brilliant, walkable urban area (#3 big city in the US, with its inner 'burbs including Somerville and Cambridge ranking even higher).

Toronto, on the other hand, came into its own more recently, and is dominated by specific major streets (such as Yonge I think) and transit nodes. These areas are very dense, but I think the density sort of relaxes when you leave these major roads and transportation hubs. Toronto's skyline definitely sprawls out much further due to this.

They are both dense cities in their own right, and models for historic and modern urban planning.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 07:16 PM   #3353
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Yes, Boston was a much bigger city than Toronto 100 years ago and the built form reflects that. Boston was easily much denser than Toronto for most of the last 150 years, but that's not really the case any more. Density only started spiking in the 1970s with high rises going up in many places outside of downtown Toronto.

The biggest changes have occurred since 2007 and I suspect the city is only witnessing the tip of the iceberg. The demands resulting from population growth will need to be met on already developed land rather than a building out onto farmland. Density levels are heading much much higher.

You're quite right in that Boston and Toronto differ significantly in how the density is spread around. Boston seems to have more uniform high density while in Toronto it varies quite a bit. The lower density areas are witnessing intensification, but there's quite a strong backlash from long time Toronto residents. As much as the attention is on Toronto's skyscraper boom, the key to meeting the demands for new residential and office space lie in low and mid rises. We'll need 1000s of buildings like the one below:

Origami Lofts, Bathurst Street

Courtesy of Teeple Architects

Btw, I used to live in Montreal and people always seem to make comparisons between it and Boston. The walkability of Boston is well know amongst Canadians. That said, I do think Toronto deserves to be part of the conversation when one talks about dense cities beyond the core. The city has changed a great deal and there's lots of intensification efforts throughout metropolitan Toronto.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #3354
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In all its glory by ValentinLiteratus, on Flickr
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Old March 26th, 2014, 05:01 AM   #3355
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Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.

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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:52 AM   #3356
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:54 AM   #3357
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Old March 27th, 2014, 05:15 AM   #3358
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Old March 27th, 2014, 05:33 AM   #3359
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New York, Chicago and San Francisco ..

American cities descend waaaay too quickly into a bunch of car lots and a flat desert of residential nothingness.. ..

These three cities kinda escape that ..
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Old March 27th, 2014, 05:36 AM   #3360
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Quote:
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New York, Chicago and San Francisco ..

American cities descend waaaay too quickly into a bunch of car lots and a flat desert of residential nothingness.. ..

These three cities kinda escape that ..
Does this mean you don't agree with DZH22 regarding Boston?
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