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Old January 12th, 2015, 02:32 AM   #4881
isaidso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techniques1200s View Post
Do you have any stats to support what you claim? I'm curious.

I know that SF for example has the highest population densities in the US outside of NYC (aside from a weird tract in Chicago that is comprised of only two highrise buildings, and is technically the densest tract in the entire US), with the densest census tract in SF (which is full of crowded SROs in the tenderloin neighborhood) coming in at over 161,000 people per square mile. I wouldn't be surprised if Vancouver and Toronto have tracts that are denser than that (or whatever the Canadian equivalent of a census tract is), but I also wouldn't be too surprised if they didn't.
There have been around 4-5 thread discussions over the last couple years on the exact subject on here and SSP. I'm not quite sure how to find those threads, but the conclusions of each seemed to be the same. Manhattan is much denser than any other 'central city', Toronto is 2nd, Vancouver has dropped to 3rd. San Francisco was deemed 2nd densest in the US.

That tract in Chicago gets noted quite often (Toronto has a similar one: St. Jamestown stood at 167,803 people/sq mile in 2011), but they're not all that representative of overall density in downtown Toronto, Chicago, or any other city.

'Central city' can be somewhat arbitrary but if one look at the Old City of Toronto + East York (45.7 sq miles) and the City of San Francisco (46.7 sq miles) one's dealing with a central city of roughly the same area. The City of San Francisco was less dense back in 2010-11 and Toronto has likely widened the gap considerably since then. The Old City of Toronto + East York will likely top 1,000,000 people by the end of 2015.

Old City of Toronto + East York
Area: (37.5 + 8.2) 45.7 sq miles
Population (2011): (736,775 + 115,365) 852,140
Density: 18,646 people/sq mile

City of San Francisco
Area: 46.69 sq miles
Population (2010): 805,235
Density: 17,246 people/sq mile


The population density of downtown Toronto is much much higher. My downtown Toronto census tract and the next 2 over from me are all over 60,000 people/sq mile and these are by no means the densest tracts downtown.
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Last edited by isaidso; January 12th, 2015 at 03:35 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 03:55 AM   #4882
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Not sure, but I think San Francisco/Montreal are likely next densest.
I still wholeheartedly believe that Boston is denser than Montreal. Not by much, but still.





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Old January 12th, 2015, 03:56 AM   #4883
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Really wish Photobucket would let me put bigger shots up here. I'm switching to Flickr soon.





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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:00 AM   #4884
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The second and third pictures seem to be mostly office buildings which few people tend to live in, and the first picture seems to be dense townhouses similar in scale to much of Montreal but with a different architectural style. No doubt Boston has a higher density of office space...
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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:08 AM   #4885
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The second and third pictures seem to be mostly office buildings which few people tend to live in, and the first picture seems to be dense townhouses similar in scale to much of Montreal but with a different architectural style. No doubt Boston has a higher density of office space...
It's difficult to make an apples to apples comparison, because the size of the cities aren't the same. Boston clocks in at 13,340/sq mile, while Montreal is 11,701/sq mile. However, Montreal is taking into account a larger area, while Boston has multiple suburbs (Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea) that are denser than the city itself. Tough to totally figure, but I don't think Montreal has any singular areas that beat out the North End or a couple other tracts here over 100,000 per sq/mile.

As an aside that I have mentioned many times, I hate the way people measure "density" on this site. Density should include the entire built form, and not just residentials. Toronto's core is dense as hell with huge office buildings. Boston has a super dense office core, with some of the tightest streets in North America. Boston is clearly "denser" than Somerville, for instance, except that Somerville is almost all residential overflow from Boston itself, with hardly any offices in comparison. It's really goofy to say that just because a street has an apartment tower instead of an office tower, that the area is automatically "denser". A tall tower surrounded by huge parking lots could be considered denser than a built up low-rise grid with streets barely wide enough to fit a single car in one direction, but is it really?

What it comes down to, for me at least, is that measuring density strictly by residential population offers a very inaccurate picture of what's really going on with a city. You're telling me that hey, the WTC and Empire State Buildings don't count. The Willis Tower doesn't count. FCP and Scotia don't count. SWFC (or whatever) in Miami doesn't count. I have a hard time accepting that the largest towers in most cities are completely irrelevant when people compare cities on a SKYSCRAPER site.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:25 AM   #4886
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Yes I agree 100% that overall built density is an important part of the equation. Built form density has a big effect on the appearance and function of a city. But population density both a big effect on built density (since people need buildings in which to live) but also on the vibrancy on the street. Both need to be acknowledged.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:27 AM   #4887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Yes I agree 100% that overall built density is an important part of the equation. Built form density has a big effect on the appearance and function of a city. But population density both a big effect on built density (since people need buildings in which to live) but also on the vibrancy on the street. Both need to be acknowledged.
Well I am going to acknowledge that I believe Boston slightly edges out Montreal on both counts. Very difficult to prove that one either way though.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:46 AM   #4888
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The built density is likely impossible to prove but population density is a pretty precisely kept statistic for most cities. I'm sure isaidso will drop by and clear things up at some point.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 04:53 AM   #4889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Well I am going to acknowledge that I believe Boston slightly edges out Montreal on both counts. Very difficult to prove that one either way though.
Montreal and Boston are likely neck and neck with little separating them at all. Montreal is seeing significant growth in downtown construction (office, residential, institutional). I'm not familiar enough with Boston to know if it's keeping pace. Montreal is adding population at a faster rate according to data released over the last 3-4 years but we'll have to let things unfold to see if any separation develops.

My sense is that Montreal will develop some separation (if none exists currently) by both measures before the decade is out.
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Last edited by isaidso; January 12th, 2015 at 04:59 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 05:20 AM   #4890
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
My sense is that Montreal will develop some separation (if none exists currently) by both measures before the decade is out.
Boston's mayor has a plan to jam a ton of new housing in here: http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/default.aspx?id=14828

We don't have quite as much quantity going as Montreal in terms of numbers of towers (yet), but we have taller residentials coming. By the end of next year we should have 2 new residential towers topped off that are taller than ANY building in Montreal, with more large ones out of the ground. (think towers that are on par with Montreal's big 5, only they will be residential)

I don't think there will be any separation at all. We have a housing crisis here, with I believe the 3rd most expensive real estate in the country, and a new mayor who is a union guy and wants as much construction going on as possible. Also, we might have an Olympics to deal with, which will increase the frenzy further.

If anything, density will stay on par, while Boston's skyline will separate from Montreal's in a blowout. (that Mount Royal height limit thing is really killing Montreal there)

Also, our inner suburbs (already denser than Boston itself) are ramping up residential construction too, particularly Cambridge.

While Montreal seems to have about a 1-2 year jump on us in the current boom, (in terms of the larger proposals coming to fruition) our old obstructionist mayor is not only out of office, but he's DEAD. It's a new era here in Boston. I'm happy to see both cities booming after their long slumbers. Hopefully, they both keep up for many years to come.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 05:45 AM   #4891
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Montreal's central city seems to be have significantly higher population density than Boston. Looks like Montreal is denser than San Francisco as well: 17,942 people/sq mile vs. 17,246 people/sq mile.

9 central boroughs of Montreal: 920,447 (133 sq km or 51.3 sq miles) (2011)
Population Density: 6,921 people/sq km or 17,942 people/sq mile
Villeray-Saint Michel-Parc Extension: 142,222 (16.5 sq km)
Rosemont-La Petite-Patrie: 134,038 (15.9 sq km)
Mercier-Hochelaga-Maisonneuve: 131,483 (25.4 sq km)
Le Plateau-Mont Royal: 100,390 (8.1 sq km)
Ville-Marie (downtown): 84,013 (16.5 sq km)
Outremont: 23,566 (3.9 sq km)
Cote-des-Neiges/Notre-Dame-de-Grace: 165,031 (21.4 sq km)
Le Sud-Ouest: 71,546 (15.7 sq km)
Verdun: 66,158 (9.7 sq km)

Boston: 645,966 (125 sq km or 48.3 sq miles) (2013)
Population Density: 5,168 people/sq km or 13,374 people/sq mile


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough...treal_boroughs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston
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I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

Last edited by isaidso; January 12th, 2015 at 06:22 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 05:53 AM   #4892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
Boston's mayor has a plan to jam a ton of new housing in here: http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/default.aspx?id=14828

We don't have quite as much quantity going as Montreal in terms of numbers of towers (yet), but we have taller residentials coming. By the end of next year we should have 2 new residential towers topped off that are taller than ANY building in Montreal, with more large ones out of the ground. (think towers that are on par with Montreal's big 5, only they will be residential)

I don't think there will be any separation at all.
Thanks for the link. It looks good, but by my calculations Montreal already has population density about 35% higher than Boston. By building density it's hard to say but I think you're under estimating how packed central Montreal is.

Btw, good luck with your Olympics bid. It would be great for Boston.
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Last edited by isaidso; January 12th, 2015 at 06:12 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 06:03 AM   #4893
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Worth adding:
Somerville 2010: 75,754 people, 10.6 km/sq, 7019.3 per km/sq
Cambridge 2010: 105,162 people, 16.65 km/sq, 6316.04 km/sq
Chelsea 2010: 35,177 people, 5.7 km/sq, 6173.6 km/sq

I'm having a very difficult time finding specific neighborhood density, especially in terms of km/sq (we use miles here).

Let's revisit this after the 2020 census when a large part of our respective booms come to fruition. See you then.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 06:05 AM   #4894
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Quote:
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By building density it's hard to say but I think you're under estimating how packed central Montreal is.
Montreal reminds me of midtown Manhattan. Boston reminds me of downtown Manhattan. They're both absolutely stacked. I have been to Montreal about 10 times in my life, but it's probably been 7-8 years since my last visit.

Note: Here's an additional stat. Boston has an estimated 1.2 million people within its boundaries during work hours, or 9568.61 people per sq/km. (24,783 per sq/mile) Maybe a better measure of the actual "built up" density. Those office towers ought to count for something. What does Montreal look like during the day?
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Old January 12th, 2015, 07:37 AM   #4895
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Midtown Manhattan from 1 WTC



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Old January 13th, 2015, 08:15 AM   #4896
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Houston


DSC_0524 by againtothefuture, on Flickr
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Old January 13th, 2015, 05:52 PM   #4897
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By building density it's hard to say but I think you're under estimating how packed central Montreal is.
As if on cue I had a dream I was in Montreal last night. However, it was the Hong Kong / Guangzhou / NYC hybrid version of Montreal. Ever been to that one? Astounding place. Even had a monorail. Skyline definitely wrecked Boston's.
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Old January 14th, 2015, 03:33 AM   #4898
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Mexico City.

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Old January 14th, 2015, 04:19 AM   #4899
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Houston


IMG_1646 by againtothefuture, on Flickr


DSC_3937 Stitch by againtothefuture, on Flickr


View from roof - 10-1 by againtothefuture, on Flickr
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Old January 14th, 2015, 04:40 AM   #4900
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Mexico City
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