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Old January 6th, 2012, 07:14 AM   #1161
Yellow Fever
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Never mind the super tall, Vancouver badly needs a mini tall!
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Old January 6th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #1162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
I bet someone out there is plotting to build a supertall in Toronto but I hope they don't wait too long in the cycle like developers in Chicago keep doing. T.O. needs at least 3 good supertalls to set the bitch off.
We can only hope so. I think even one will change the form of the skyline dramatically especially if it is sufficiently far from the King/Bay cluster since it'll add an extra focal point.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Toronto's a frustratingly pragmatic place. Sometimes I'm surprised that there are any frills at all: Yorkville, opera, festivals. Hopefully, there are enough people in Toronto that want a little more than Plain Jane 100% of the time. I think there are... I'd be surprised if Toronto didn't get a super tall in this building cycle.
I personally wonder how things like the CN Tower and Skydome got built in the first place. It is astonishing to think that the builders of the tower purposely increased the height from the initial plan for no other reason than to set a record. If it were being built today, they'd be looking to decrease the height to a minimum level at which it can just barely serve its function.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #1163
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There have been occasional flirtations with grandeur in Toronto. You're quite right that buildings like the CN Tower would never get built in todays Toronto, but it's exactly buildings like the CN Tower, Royal York, Maple Leaf Gardens, etc. that help make Toronto wonderful. The original College Park was another proposal in that same vein. Too bad it was never finished.

Toronto will revisit the desire to build something special/ground breaking, but it's discouraging watching uninspiring condo after condo rise in an unprecedented boom like this. Where's our Tour Verre?
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Last edited by isaidso; January 6th, 2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 10:42 AM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Fever View Post
Never mind the super tall, Vancouver badly needs a mini tall!
What do you think of the arguments that Vancouver has no choice but to drastically increase the allowable height of new buildings in the core because land is rapidly running out?

In retrospect, all those 10-40 floor condo towers built since 1980 seem like a tremendous waste of valuable real estate. They should have been much much taller, and built right out to the edge of their lots.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #1165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
That's fair. In regard to the AIG building, it was recently bought by a developer who plans to convert it to residential usage, so it's changing hands, being emptied, being massively renovated, etc, so when all that's done I'm sure they'll figure something out with the lighting but that's a couple years away.

Especially downtown, NY needs buildings to rise above the endless sea of 700 foot boxes. Once those new focal points are added, the WTC, Tower Verre, 432 Park, Hudson Yards South, One57, so that the 700 foot admittedly dull boxes are complimentary, as opposed to now where they're the focal point of the skyline, NY will be #1 in my book.

After that, the only real knock will be that the setting isn't as nice as Chi or HK. But to each his own I guess, HK and Chi are gonna have to make some nice additions to keep up in the near future.
I see, well lets hope they restore the AIG to its old glory. It's such a fine building, it certainly deserves the best.

Yes, NY is one of the few cities where only a supertall skyscraper can stand out. Even a 700 footer, as you mentioned, would be lost in the sheer mass.

About the setting: True, NY's setting (flanked by 2 rivers + sea) isn't as "nice" as HK's (harbour + mountains) or CHI's (lake). But hey, that's not the city's fault! SH f.e. would have the least appealing setting of the bunch, but it's still a great skyline.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #1166
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Manhattan being a sea of skyscrapers surrounded by water is a rather dramatic setting. In some ways, I prefer it to the lake setting in Chicago.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #1167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Manhattan being a sea of skyscrapers surrounded by water is a rather dramatic setting. In some ways, I prefer it to the lake setting in Chicago.
The problem is though, Manhattan is not really out there in the Atlantic. So it's hard to get a nice picture of Manhattan without a part of Brooklyn or Jersey City obscuring the view. Unlike Chicago or Hong Kong where you can really see the full outline of the skyline
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Old January 6th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #1168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Manhattan being a sea of skyscrapers surrounded by water is a rather dramatic setting. In some ways, I prefer it to the lake setting in Chicago.
But in Chicago, the lake helps define that sharp wall of skyscrapers, whereas Midtown Manhattan doesn't have much if any relation to the water around it. The tip of Lower Manhattan is strikingly defined by the Hudson/East River confluence, but Midtown to me looks like a jumble of skyscrapers that someone dumped on the island, and that huge clump with little regard for its surroundings except Central Park is one reason I personally prefer Chicago's skyline to the New York skyline.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 08:05 PM   #1169
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Yeah, but the skyscraper wall surrounding Central Park is one of a kind, and with One57 it will even get more massive.

Also, I really like bridge + skyline in the same pic:



image hosted on flickr

Edouard.34

Now imagine the view with the new WTC, no chance Chicago can beat this and Midtown together.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #1170
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Chicago needs a 'West Coast', i.e. a wall of towers west of the river to maximize those city views. You can't sell a city view from the middle of a lake.


More please
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Old January 7th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #1171
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Toronto's on a lake just like Chicago, but does offer city views because the lake curves. When you get as far west of downtown as Humber Bay you see this:



Courtesy of d.Mar


Courtesy of outdoorphotographycanada

2014 render

Courtesy of The El

There are also great city views from the Toronto Islands (directly in front of downtown) and Leslie Spit (to the east of downtown).
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Last edited by isaidso; January 7th, 2012 at 01:58 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 06:27 AM   #1172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
Chicago needs a 'West Coast', i.e. a wall of towers west of the river to maximize those city views. You can't sell a city view from the middle of a lake.


More please
One of my misgivings of Chicago's skyline...it just dies the further inland you go. It's good when it comes to pics and contrast views but compared to NYC or even Toronto, it's highrises are very concentrated. Once you get past I-90/94, there are barely any.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 06:32 AM   #1173
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Looking at those images, my first thought is that sea level rise in the next few decades is going to play havoc with Lower Manhattan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
Chicago needs a 'West Coast', i.e. a wall of towers west of the river to maximize those city views. You can't sell a city view from the middle of a lake.


More please
That's an old picture. Trump is noticeably missing, which means that image is from 2006 or before. There is quite a bit of infill in River North and along the I-90/94 corridor missing from that image, which addresses your concerns. In ten years, that "West Coast" will be well developed. You can see the stair steps developing in this newer image.

image hosted on flickr

(wswarrior75, Flickr)

A good example of the city views on the "other side" of the skyline

image hosted on flickr

(IC360, Flickr)

As well, Lake Michigan curves, so there are several vantage points along the Chicago lakeshore where you can look straight at downtown.

Both north (Lincoln Park):

image hosted on flickr

(Iamhydrogen, Flickr)

And south (Promontory Point):

image hosted on flickr


(Nitram242, Flickr)

Can Chicago compete with New York in sheer numbers? Of course not. But I feel it has a more eye catching form to its skyline than New York's two massive clumps of highrises and smaller patches.

Last edited by Dralcoffin; January 7th, 2012 at 06:51 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #1174
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Nice pics, and I get your point. Still, Chicago's skyline needs to expand more along the lake shore to create a more continuous skyline.

About Midtown: Sure, it's a sea of skyscrapers. When looking down from ESB or TOTR (i.e. from above!) you just see a massive cluster.

image hosted on flickr

New York City Manhattan skyline aerial panorama von Songquan Deng auf Flickr

But let's take another, classic look, which shows Midtown in a better spotlight:

David Deng


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr



image hosted on flickr

New York City Manhattan von Songquan Deng auf Flickr


image hosted on flickr

New York City Manhattan at dusk von Songquan Deng auf Flickr
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Old January 7th, 2012, 12:44 PM   #1175
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I do appreciate the Chicago skyline, but New York just kills it in my opinion. Chicago has balance, but it's just too small to rival New York's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
One of my misgivings of Chicago's skyline...it just dies the further inland you go. It's good when it comes to pics and contrast views but compared to NYC or even Toronto, it's highrises are very concentrated. Once you get past I-90/94, there are barely any.
That's fair. Chicago's skyscrapers are all concentrated downtown. It makes for a more impressive core, but you don't really encounter other significant nodes like one does in metro Toronto (Mississauga, North York City Centre, Scarborough City Centre, etc.)
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Old January 7th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #1176
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Complete New York skyline:

Taken by Matt



This is beyond massive.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #1177
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Part of the difference in opinion is that I don't really place an emphasis on sheer number of buildings but rather overall visible effect, and a city so dense that many or most buildings are hidden in a typical skyline shot, such as New York, loses points with me. To me, a skyline is on the ground near downtown, not an eye-popping aerial showing several square miles, so New York and Toronto get docked in my methodology. All three cities are still darn nice, and I'd say all are in my top five world wide. Choosing a favorite North American skyline to me is like choosing the most attractive hair color on a woman.

Aside from the big three, what's everyone's favorite smaller skyline? Mine would probably be Seattle for both that sharp cluster downtown and the gorgeous natural setting.

image hosted on flickr

(WordRidden, FlickrWordRidden, Flickr)

image hosted on flickr

Simonds, Flickr
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Old January 7th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #1178
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I think Chicago's skyline is perfect as it is. Sure after the core, it's flat as the eye can see, but there are no large town or city even close to Chicago.

I think it's unfair to a city like Chicago to always play second fiddle to NYC and to some extent, LA. I mean, its nickname is the Second City. Chicago would be the premiere city of ANY country in the world. The one thing about Chicago's skyline I do like is that its easier to spot individual towers than in NYC. I'm just glad that theres a construction boom now after years of what seemed to me as a stagnation phase.

I'm actually more interested on which of the upcoming skylines will make the most improvements in the upcoming years. It seems like Philadelphia might join the ranks soon (it already has two 900+ towers and more proposals) - although I think Atlanta is more busy.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #1179
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Whats the construction boom going on in chicago? i have only noticed 1 or 2 buildings U/C and they wont be impacting the skyline.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyboo View Post
Whats the construction boom going on in chicago? i have only noticed 1 or 2 buildings U/C and they wont be impacting the skyline.
I think he might be referencing the past five years that have seen the skyline nearly double in terms of tall buildings; right now is a severe lull from the credit crash although there's starting to be a new surge in proposed projects.
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