Warehouses

[John-MK]

Originally Posted by liverpolitan

I was shocked to realise Greenburg's had closed down - didnt it used to be a shop that sold work uniforms and stuff? I never went in there, but it is a grand building. I am like a scratched record here, but developers need to be protected from themselves. They can add value by retaining character, history and authenticity in an area they are regenerating. Yes, it might cost a bit more to refurbish and sometimes it can be awkward, (compared to demolition and new building) but in the long-term the development and the surrounding modern buildings will surely have greater value? Well I could be wrong, it's just a supposition really. I come back to the point that there are too many empty lots being used for car parking or next to nothing to justify destroying quality old buildings of character.

Do you remember the gasps of horror when Dave posted up a picture of Lime Street taken from I think the steps of St George's Hall - showing what was there before St John's Precinct? Or the consternation expressed when people (including me) realised that where the sports shed is in Williamson Square was an really attractive building of character? At the time it is always justified on the grounds that "the developer will walk away". It's not true. We have to save the heritage as well as build anew. Liverpool is unique in having a lot to save without this having to be at the cost of regeneration - there are literally hundreds of sites to develop around the old buildings. It just needs a clear planning framework to make that happen.

Poli, far too much of our history and heritage has met with the bulldozer - some fine buildings have gone. It really has to stop. The waterways are being treated with open contempt as well.

Old buildings add value and quality developers know this.

[woody]

Poli, am signing off ,my bed is calling me, thanks again for the excellent pics.

[johnnypd]

i love the architecture in this thread, and liverpool is truly blessed that it possesses such buildings in abundance. i shall pray to god that all of these beauties get saved and restored (even though they look fab in their ruinous state).

sadly about a half-dozen similar buildings on newcastle quayside have been burnt down in the past decade, usually to make way for exclusive apartments. while the new buildings look great, they're not a patch on the old warehouses. this one was burnt down just a few weeks back:



wish there was some sort of society established to protect our industrial heritage, though not an EH-type body, more concerned with stately homes than urban victoriana.

[Paul D]

I think developers pay someone to do it myself.

[liverpolitan]

Developers need to be incentivised to help prevent "accidental" fires starting in empty, boarded up buildings. Perhaps, once they have got planning permission, they should be locked into things in such a way that if a protected building gets burned down, they will have to pay to rebuild it. They will then protect the site, get a night watchman etc. Also, to guard against "accidents" earlier in the process, perhaps those applying for planning permission (or even change of use) should also be obliged to satisfy the Council that they have adequate fire safety arrangements, eg securing the premises properly, and possibly pay for a night watchman also.

[John-MK]

Originally Posted by liverpolitan

Developers need to be incentivised to help prevent "accidental" fires starting in empty, boarded up buildings. Perhaps, once they have got planning permission, they should be locked into things in such a way that if a protected building gets burned down,

Land Value Tax. LVT is that you pay tax on the "value" of the land at all times, whether the buildings on it are occupied or not. If owned off-shore, they still have to pay – if not the house is repossessed and sold and the admin and taxes owed are taken off. That is all land with buildings on it or not. LVT eliminates income tax, so does not penalise a mans labour.

Pittsburgh had a Liverpool problem and introduced LVT - the boarded up buildings were renovated or sold and renovated.

Google "Henry George", "Georgism" and "land value Tax". Enlightening.

[Tony Sebo]

Though LVT is by no means the answer to everything, it is infinately better than the current system and should be investigated more.

[liverpolitan]

This artist (Rob Davies, from the Wirral) has created some great illustations of the "warehouse" area. On this link scroll down to the heading "From Cains Brewery to Parliament Street"

http://www.fallingawakeillustration.....php?p=4&pno=0

Apparently they are for a book you can buy in "Polished T" gallery in Duke Street:

http://artinliverpool.com/robdavies/index.htm

[Pietari]

Originally Posted by liverpolitan

Developers need to be incentivised to help prevent "accidental" fires starting in empty, boarded up buildings. Perhaps, once they have got planning permission, they should be locked into things in such a way that if a protected building gets burned down, they will have to pay to rebuild it. They will then protect the site, get a night watchman etc. Also, to guard against "accidents" earlier in the process, perhaps those applying for planning permission (or even change of use) should also be obliged to satisfy the Council that they have adequate fire safety arrangements, eg securing the premises properly, and possibly pay for a night watchman also.

It`s not just the "Accitental fires" (ho ho ho - yeah right.)

It is the accellerated decay used when `Upper windows are left open` and therefore the `elelments` take hold and the building is pushed beyond repair.

I`ve seen this many many many times around Liverpool, I think there may even be windows open in the `Royal Insurance` building North John Street.

It`s nothing short of criminal.

[McGrath]

Yes, there have been a number of these 'accidental fires' in the past couple of years. Certainnly more than in any decade since the Blitz. Bridgewater Street warehouses (feautured in a number of the pics above) are on the brink of collapse since a fire there two years ago. How the frame is hol.ding itself together I don't know.
Also, earlier this year there was a fire adjacent to Stanley Dock - not that would have been VERY convenient!!!!

As for Greenberg's, I was under the impression that they'd moved the business out to Speke or somewhere?

Certainly the money on offer by property developers makes a lot of SMEs think twice about staying put. I know of a mechanic in the London Road area who has sold up recently. Ideally these businesses should be retained on the ground floor of 'mixed use' schemes, exactly the way they are in, for example, Spanish cities.

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by Pietari

It`s not just the "Accitental fires" (ho ho ho - yeah right.)

It is the accellerated decay used when `Upper windows are left open` and therefore the `elelments` take hold and the building is pushed beyond repair.

I`ve seen this many many many times around Liverpool, I think there may even be windows open in the `Royal Insurance` building North John Street.

It`s nothing short of criminal.

Too true Pie. The irony is many of these buildings are "listed". It's incumbent for an owner of a "listed" building to maintain the property so it is safe and secure from the elements, there are scores of these buidings in Liverpool virtually roofless and LCC own some of them.Which begs the question:what the fuck are the conservation dept of LCC and EH doing about it? they're too busy sitting on panels rejecting modern developments for red brick 5 storey shite that is "in keeping" with the Albert Dock etc, that's what.

[JUXTAPOL]

I think because the Bridgewater Street warehouses are built solidly in the first place, and have survived the internals being burnt out (nothing left to burn now), that the owner would have to accidently demolish the building, to see it reduced to rubble. The Buddlia project to refurbish a massive warehouse just up the road should help to generate interest in these old warehouses. I think they will be ideal for apartments, but are a bit cut off from Baltic/Ropewalks at the moment.

[Pietari]

Originally Posted by the golden vision

Too true Pie. The irony is many of these buildings are "listed". It's incumbent for an owner of a "listed" building to maintain the property so it is safe and secure from the elements, there are scores of these buidings in Liverpool virtually roofless and LCC own some of them.Which begs the question:what the fuck are the conservation dept of LCC and EH doing about it? they're too busy sitting on panels rejecting modern developments for red brick 5 storey shite that is "in keeping" with the Albert Dock etc, that's what.

That perhaps `Golden` is the crux of the matter but not were it is going to stay.

Those `hafless` councilors have had their run and they are at the wrong end of the stick but then they are not necessarily `first generation` hapless.

Hafless and hapless.

[Doug Roberts]

Sprague Bros.in Greenock St. the building is still in use, I hope it stays that way.

[liverpolitan]

Lovely pics Doug. I've never seen that building close-up before, only in the far distance in photos here. It's splendid, isn't it? Does anyone know if it's listed? I think the cobbles should be listed as well.

[Doug Roberts]

Thanks Pol, up close the building is special seems very warm and friendly yet industrial, the cobbles on the street are the original ones. I just hope that the wave of development can embrace Greenock St. and leave it intact.

[liverpolitan]

I'd assume EH had a stategy for just that purpose, but maybe they have not yet got round to drawing up proactive and constructive strategies to protect Liverpool's architectural heritage? Does anyone know if they have a stategy or plan or anything I can look at that explains how they will protect the heritage of Liverpool? If it's "not their job", anyone know whose job it is, if anyone? I'm a bit gobsmacked there was no decent opposition to the Greenberg's demolition (and having seen now a drawing of what might replace it, it's nothing short of tragic).

[Tony Sebo]

As said millions of times, one of the greatest irritations with them is that these demolitions and continued deriliction is going on whilst they wank around crafting fantasy landscapes and focusing on limiting new stuff.


The city desperately needs sound conservation policies and then to rigidly enforce it!

[Doug Roberts]

I'm not sure if EH do have a stategic plan for Liverpool?? they seem to react mostly to individual new projects and screw them up.

I agree about the Greenberg building, I was very suprised that none of us had picked up the plan to knock it down. Around about the the time Windsor withdrew the planning application for the site, I think the Victorian Society, or some similar group, were talking about having the building listed to protect it, I was gutted to see those pictures showing being knocked down!! again it begs the question where was EH when they were needed??? I thought it was an excellent building and one worth struggling to keep.

[johnnypd]

Originally Posted by liverpolitan

I'd assume EH had a stategy for just that purpose, but maybe they have not yet got round to drawing up proactive and constructive strategies to protect Liverpool's architectural heritage? Does anyone know if they have a stategy or plan or anything I can look at that explains how they will protect the heritage of Liverpool? If it's "not their job", anyone know whose job it is, if anyone? I'm a bit gobsmacked there was no decent opposition to the Greenberg's demolition (and having seen now a drawing of what might replace it, it's nothing short of tragic).

saw that in another thread. it is heartbreaking to see a lovely building and our built heritage destroyed like that. i doubt it is architectually or historically significant, but then i'm against the whole attitude that only wants to save old buildings if they are worthy of textbook inclusion as if they were some oddity or rarity. there's a finite supply of old buildings therefore we should try and save as many as possible for future use, and not simply view them as museum pieces.