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Old May 18th, 2017, 01:20 AM   #21
medviation
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Quote:
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One big Lessor , ILC , are interested in the MoM at $75m a pop or $150m list price. Bout the only way to do that is a 767 MaX reboot....not with conposites for sure.
Not sure about that. There's no way in the world will a 767-200 MAX be more efficient than a conceptual A322 with similar engine tech.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 02:11 AM   #22
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yes 767 is a very old platform. If it was ever feasible to update it for passenger use, they would have done so by now. The wide body market is getting more and more competitive and only modern and efficient designs sell.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 01:08 PM   #23
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Leaving out the putative A322 i don't see how an all new 797 with composites n sheeut will pay its way...unless the 787-3 is revived again for the upper end of the Middle.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:25 AM   #24
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The 787-3 was just a 787-8 with a smaller wingspan and therefor worse economics, even at the very short ranges it was intended to fly in Japan. It would be the worst option to go for if Boeing wants to create a wide-body plane with narrow-body economics. The 787-3 is a closed book, it will never be bought back to life.

But the 797 will definitely be using a lot of the 787 technology, just in a more compact and lighter form. It will fit in size between the possible A322 by Airbus and the 787-8. The proposed range will also interesting. Early info suggest that there might be 2 versions. 1 smaller version with a 767 range (long range, but not like the 787), and 1 bigger version with a 757 range (just a bit longer then today's narrow body planes).

The 797 will most likely have a new fuselage, new wings and most importantly the next generation of new engines which the engine manufactures will bring to the market in the mid 2020s. If Airbus really wants to compete in this market segment with the A322 they will also have to wait until these new engines are available. And then it will mean that they will put new engines on a 40 year old base design. A bit like the current 737 MAX, it will be good, but it will come with some shortcoming based on it's older design.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 05:38 AM   #25
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I wish airbus was considering to produce a322
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Old May 20th, 2017, 11:31 AM   #26
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Well, they are considering it, the A322 doesn't come out of nothing. If and when they going for it is a different question.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #27
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I still can't see this 797 selling 1000 units across both variants like the 757 did and Boeing would be simply mad to announce a firm programme absent 500 advance sales....meaning all the current big 757 operators in the States have to sign up for at least 100 each in advance for example.

In Europe there is no market for this bird that I can see, the A321neo can handle Europes particular requirements perfectly well and a double daily schedule would be the logical way of upguaging an A321neo to my mind.

The reason is that scheduled airlines in the US switch from long European flights to long Carribbean flights in winter and keep their 757 and 767 fleet utilised all year that way. Europes leisure industry is more charter based and more long haul rather than mediumish haul and the 787 and A350 will do that jobbie very well on a charter basis like it already does. I don't see how Europe can utilise this a/c properly in winter like the US could.

So unless there is some hidden demand in Asia that I am not aware of then this project won't fly for many years....I won't say never but I don't see where the demand is coming from between now and 2020. So I would be surprised at a programme launch in this decade, in fact I would be shocked.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #28
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Boeing need to launch the bird with 300 orders across 10 sizeable customers or it ain't worth it.
Why not, India alone could potentially need several hundres if they ever get their act together and start to build proper airports like they have been doing in China for the last 15 years.

Africa will need hundreds too, especially now with millions of african imigrants in europe. Once they get some decent airports up and running in west africa the 797 will be perfect for the job.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 04:29 PM   #29
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If the 767 could get 1200 orders in 40 years, why would a similar new plane not reach the 1000 orders in a market that is so much bigger now then the market 20 to 40 years ago? Even with the competition of the A321 and the 787.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 05:00 PM   #30
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India alone could potentially need several hundres if they ever get their act together and start to build proper airports

Once they get some decent airports up and running in west africa the 797 will be perfect for the job.
Chicken and Egg problem then innit. Come back to me in 2020 with Google Earth imagery of these new airports.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 11:06 PM   #31
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Boeing To Unveil First New Midsize Airplane Details In Paris

With Boeing’s New Midsize Airplane (NMA) project expected to be a key topic at the upcoming Paris Air Show, the manufacturer will take advantage of this interest to showcase its concept by releasing the first few tangible details.

...

This twin-aisle-family concept is designed to fill the gap between the 737-10 and 787-8, and will seat 220-270 passengers and fly up to 5,000 nm.

However, while NMA is configured with a twin-aisle cross-section, it is targeted at single-aisle operating costs. To achieve this, Boeing is focusing on several advances in the overall design as well as on construction and propulsion.

But exactly how that will be accomplished remains proprietary information. “We have the process capability and the ability to architect and tool the airplane so that we can design the configuration we want in the production system we want. That’s about as deep as I’m going to go, because that’s part of the secret sauce,” says Mike Delaney, Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice president and general manager of airplane development.

...

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...-details-paris
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Old June 12th, 2017, 11:22 PM   #32
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A crazy idea entered my head. A double-decker single aisle jet.
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Old June 13th, 2017, 03:17 AM   #33
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I think Boeing is going to show a concept mockup model and ask for feedback from every airline representative going to the Paris Air Show. Those airline representatives' feedback will determine the size of the plane, which in turn will decide the type of engine it will use. A scaled-up version of the Pratt & Whitney GTF or a scaled down version of the GE GENx are possibilities; a scaled-up version of the Aviadvigatel PD-14 might not be a far-fetched idea, too.
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Old June 13th, 2017, 03:35 AM   #34
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Except for the model part that's pretty much what they have already done the last 2 years. What we will see at the airshow is the results of those talks with airlines. Boeing will now announce which size it will be. From now they are going to turn into an actual design that will be launched next year.

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A crazy idea entered my head. A double-decker single aisle jet.
The biggest issue with this design is probably the gate design at airports. It will not work on the already existing standard gates for planes this size with a single jet bridge.
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Old June 13th, 2017, 03:56 AM   #35
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A crazy idea entered my head. A double-decker single aisle jet.
IMHO could be very close to the former A310 (size and capability both)
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Old June 13th, 2017, 11:36 AM   #36
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IMHO could be very close to the former A310 (size and capability both)
Which was very close to a 757 but with a bigger wing area. Bigger wing can store longer undercarriage to support wider fan forms in the engine.

How about a supersized 757 wing box with composite 787 sections (or slightly shrunk 787 sections for twin aisle 8 across seating) bolted on forward and aft. They'd fit in the 787 autoclaves they would.

And then a 757 cockpit and tail and the Beluga smile,and job done
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Old June 17th, 2017, 09:08 AM   #37
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It's easier just to build 757NG. Because the aircraft works and compete directly with A321neo
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Old June 17th, 2017, 03:14 PM   #38
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We should find out as early as this Sunday the first concepts from Boeing for the MoM (middle of the market) airliner, when the Paris Air Show opens of industry attendees.
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Old June 17th, 2017, 04:16 PM   #39
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It's easier just to build 757NG. Because the aircraft works and compete directly with A321neo
Boeing cannot simply build the 757 again without too many investments in the manufacturing facilities. As Boeing is looking at making serious changes to the production process, especially using more automation, to reduce the production costs it's better to completely start over again.


Anyway, Boeing will 1st launch the 737-10 in Paris before they will present any info on this project. So don't expect anything straight away on the 1st day = Monday. Judging from their schedule it could even be on Wednesday for more info on the 797 when they have the following presentation:

"Innovating the Future of Commercial Airplanes".

Boeing Commercial Airplanes Vice President and General Manager of Airplane Development Mike Delaney will give a briefing on executing our integrated development strategy and investing in our future

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-06-...Paris-Air-Show


Any news can always leak beforehand to the press of course.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #40
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The fact that Boeing seems to be going in the direction of a twin aisle would suggest that their customers are asking for that. So a new tech big single aisle may not sell well. Given the larger passenger capacity, a twin aisle would board/empty/service more quickly, giving the airlines shorter turn around time. That maybe significantly desirable, even at the cost of some fuel economy for the equivalent capacity.

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It's easier just to build 757NG. Because the aircraft works and compete directly with A321neo
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