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Old May 21st, 2006, 05:21 AM   #241
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now, this dam complete
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Old May 21st, 2006, 06:28 AM   #242
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Congratulations!

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Old May 21st, 2006, 06:38 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clashman
Beginning in 1979, I believe, and continuing throughout the 1980's and perhaps even a bit into the 90's, China engaged in a secret border war with Vietnam, in part because Vietnam had allied itself more with Russia and not so much with China, who the Vietnamese have been resisting for over a thousand years. It is not formally acknowledged by either government, but thousands, if not 10's of thousands, were killed. It is generally presumed that Vietnam "won" the war.
Even Ho Chi Ming has said why he was willing to deal with the French occupation before the Vietnam War: "I'd rather eat French shit for five years than eat Chinese shit forever" (almost exact quote)
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:15 AM   #244
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According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:26 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeCom
Even Ho Chi Ming has said why he was willing to deal with the French occupation before the Vietnam War: "I'd rather eat French shit for five years than eat Chinese shit forever" (almost exact quote)
Ho Chi Ming was a ******* ****, after the vietnam war, he was in Beijing every other day begging for aid, the Chinese then were just too nice to tell him to **** off.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:34 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.
the german media didn't do their homework, the dam construction relocated
millions of people and if none of these people had received any compensation,
they would have already marched to Beijing and toppled the government. i
suspect that the german media used third or fouth hand information that they
didn't bother to verify.

i thought the germans were supposed to be scientific and rigorous ...
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:40 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.

They do get compensations. You have a brain, sometimes you need to use it, you know.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 09:01 AM   #248
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Then german media is a piece of joke.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 11:48 AM   #249
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Yep, thats right : German media is a piece of joke, noncritical , unprofessional, not a little bit independent,biased and full of prejudice.

Good to have the communist party of china and their press ( and all the formers here) telleng the truth, the truth and nothing but the whole truht.

I think its time that we install a system like in china in germany again
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Old May 21st, 2006, 11:59 AM   #250
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china's system is not for everyone, just like china has never had and will never have anything like the holocaust in which millions of people in germany from a certain racial group were driven out of their homes, had their possession stripped and sent to concentration camps for "scentific research". hopefull, the germans will learn to not judge china by germany's past behaviour ... after all, the chinese are not like the germans at all.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 12:17 PM   #251
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Quote:
china's system is not for everyone, just like china has never had and will never have anything like the holocaust in which millions of people in germany from a certain racial group were driven out of their homes, had their possession stripped and sent to concentration camps for "scentific research". hopefull, the germans will learn to not judge china by germany's past behaviour ... after all, the chinese are not like the germans at all.


time and again these nazi comparisons.
thats too simple my friend.

it was about todays german media critisizing something in china.
And there is no argument so far that supports the accusation that they did a bad job doing that crtitical review about the resetlement of the residents.

I saw it too on TV.
What they did was quite simple: The went to some of the former residents and asked them about the resettlement.
When you have over one million people resettled its obvious that not everybody will be compensated evenhanded.
That would be a much too difficult, timeeating process.

You can see that at BBI in Germany, where they want to build a new airport.
There werer about 4000 people who had to leave their homes, and the process at court takes about 8 years now. Imagine that for 1 000 000 people!!!

I have no probelm with the argument that not everything in german past and presence is good.
But what I do have a problem with is that some people here argue in a way that it appears as if critisizing something in china always ends with the challenge of the moral integrity of the guy who critisizes.....

Btw: Nice Dam, really.
Are there more Aerial pictures available?
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Old May 21st, 2006, 01:01 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
are you trying to make the excuse that you are too sleepy to think straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
time and again these nazi comparisons.
thats too simple my friend.
when was the last time i used the nazi comparison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
it was about todays german media critisizing something in china.
And there is no argument so far that supports the accusation that they did a bad job doing that crtitical review about the resetlement of the residents.
you offer criticism and support a serious accusation without providing factual evidence. this can be considered as slandering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
I saw it too on TV.
What they did was quite simple: The went to some of the former residents and asked them about the resettlement.
my god, some germans saw something on german tv, so it must be true!!!

if you just think about it, isn't it really clear that what you saw was an one sided story from a small fraction of the former resident's point of view? how many former residents did they interview? how much money were these people given? how much money were they earning before? where have they been settled to? what is their living standard like after the resettlement?

it is very easy to build a negative image from just a few unhappy people. proper journalism would examine both sides' arguments in accusations as serious as the mishandling of the relocation of TGD residents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
When you have over one million people resettled its obvious that not everybody will be compensated evenhanded.
That would be a much too difficult, timeeating process.
the proper term is "time consuming".

your german compariot made the folloiwng serious accusation:

Quote:
According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.
most people would interprete that accusation as the chinese government simply sent in army and police and kicked millions of people out of their homes and left them out cold -- this is far far far away from the truth. i'm not saying every one of the former residents got satisfactory compenstations, but it'd obvious that the TGD project wouldn't have been able to proceed even if a significant minority of these formal residents had got unsatisfactory compensations. the reason is obvious -- when you rob hundreds of thousands of people of their entire life possessions, you will get a serious large scale riot.


Quote:
You can see that at BBI in Germany, where they want to build a new airport.
There werer about 4000 people who had to leave their homes, and the process at court takes about 8 years now. Imagine that for 1 000 000 people!!!
again, china is not germany, and most of the former TGD residents had been offered something much better than what they used to have.

Quote:
I have no probelm with the argument that not everything in german past and presence is good.
But what I do have a problem with is that some people here argue in a way that it appears as if critisizing something in china always ends with the challenge of the moral integrity of the guy who critisizes.....
i have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
i have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.
From the comments you made in other threads i think you would like the German media. I haven`t seen the last dam report but i have seen some others. The media don`t blame the goverment itself but the corrupted small fries, who use the compensation money for themselfes. Didn`t you write some time ago that such people should get shot in the head?

I think i heard somewhere that even the Chinese media reported about the corruption around the three gorges dam.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 01:42 PM   #254
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Quote:
it is very easy to build a negative image from just a few unhappy people. proper journalism would examine both sides' arguments in accusations as serious as the mishandling of the relocation of TGD residents
Thats exactly the point. Serious journalism ( and also every serious discussion) needs to show both sides.
In this documentation about the 3 georges dam, they clearly showed the arguemts of the pro-side, which is reduction of floods, energy creation,more safety for the people living downstram and so on
But they also showed some people who were quite unhappy with their situation, who didnt get enough compensation and who complained about it.

Thats fair and professional journalism.
You cannot expect anything more in a 45 minute-show on television.

Quote:
you offer criticism and support a serious accusation without providing factual evidence. this can be considered as slandering.


I am a citizen of a free country, where i am allowed to say what i want to say.
Its not an accusation if the german media shows things that happened and still happen in china today. If you regard it as an accusation its your thing, but thats what FREE media is about : showing aspects of life, but what your personal conclusion is, is up to you.

In contrast to controlled and guided media, thats wants to shown you how you have to think about things( or how the editor or some politicians want you to)

The question is which source I do have to support my position.
And well, yes, thats just the free press, publications and so on.
Its far from being slandering if you argue on this level.

Quote:
have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.
Ok, wonderfull, then we are both fine because thats also my position.
But what do you mean with construcite critic? What should I do in your oppinon ?
Give a solution to the problem of inadequate compensation in the case of resettlements?

Or is this an arguemt like, "if you have no better soluten ,then shut up?"
There are a lot of things on this planet which are not good, and which I cirisize, but I would have to be superman to be able to solve them. But that does not mean that I am not allowed to state my oppinion.

Can we go back to topic? Does somebody have more aerial pictures? It would be interesting to see a "Before/After" comparision.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 02:03 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Thats exactly the point. Serious journalism ( and also every serious discussion) needs to show both sides.
In this documentation about the 3 georges dam, they clearly showed the arguemts of the pro-side, which is reduction of floods, energy creation,more safety for the people living downstram and so on
But they also showed some people who were quite unhappy with their situation, who didnt get enough compensation and who complained about it.

Thats fair and professional journalism.
You cannot expect anything more in a 45 minute-show on television.
This is not fair and professional journalism, the accusation is not that the TGD should never have been built, but is that the majority of the former residents had not received proper compenstated for their relocation. Your tv program just accused the chinese government of robbing its own citizens of their entire life possessions, and this accusation is only based on the word of several people. I wouldn't call this fair and professional journalism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
I am a citizen of a free country, where i am allowed to say what i want to say.
Its not an accusation if the german media shows things that happened and still happen in china today. If you regard it as an accusation its your thing, but thats what FREE media is about : showing aspects of life, but what your personal conclusion is, is up to you.

In contrast to controlled and guided media, thats wants to shown you how you have to think about things( or how the editor or some politicians want you to)
So, being a citizen of a free country makes whatever you say true? This is not only absurd but arrogant. Do I need to remind you that presidents from free countries have lied on national tv to cover up their sex scandles and wage illegal wars? Do I need to remind you that press from free countries have been circulating rumors and lies and help their government demonize other countries? If your can offer no evidence other than it's from a German media source, then your arguments and accusations are just nonsense and slandering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
The question is which source I do have to support my position.
And well, yes, thats just the free press, publications and so on.
Its far from being slandering if you argue on this level.
Gee, if your free publication told you that earth was flat, would you believe them too? Haven't you heard of the idiom that says never to judge a book by its cover?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Ok, wonderfull, then we are both fine because thats also my position.
But what do you mean with construcite critic? What should I do in your oppinon ?
Give a solution to the problem of inadequate compensation in the case of resettlements?
No, in this case, your solution would be to provide research papers that not only have a non-trivial coverage of the people involved but also present the stories from both sides, and by both sides I mean the government and the relocated people. You cannot expect people to believe your accusations just because you saw something on your own tv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Or is this an arguemt like, "if you have no better soluten ,then shut up?"
There are a lot of things on this planet which are not good, and which I cirisize, but I would have to be superman to be able to solve them. But that does not mean that I am not allowed to state my oppinion.
If you don't have a solution to offer, then don't be offended when the people you criticise tell you to get lost -- after all, they also have the right to state their oppinions.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 02:38 PM   #256
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So lets get to a point I am getting bored by circling around the same thing all the time.

1.This is a discussion forum not a universtiy. It has to be possible to post something without being attacked even though you "only " got it from the free indepent press.
( Where do you get your independent information from)

Quote:
If you don't have a solution to offer, then don't be offended when the people you criticise tell you to get lost -- after all, they also have the right to state their oppinions.
No, you are allowed to cirtisize everything, without having to have a better solution.
I critisize the US policy in Irak, but that doesnt mean I ahve a better soluton or even have the chanse to realise.
Thats not what Freedom is about.
Whats your oppinion in this case?

Who do I critisize? The people beiing corrupt and peculating money that the resettled should get?
The chinese government for not being able to stop this corruption ?

Non of all that.

I am critisizing people from a communist country who want to tell me what freedom of speech is.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 03:18 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Yep, thats right : German media is a piece of joke, noncritical , unprofessional, not a little bit independent,biased and full of prejudice.

Good to have the communist party of china and their press ( and all the formers here) telleng the truth, the truth and nothing but the whole truht.

I think its time that we install a system like in china in germany again
Sorry to tell you the truth, I used to work for the Tagesschau and Tagesthemen, Germany's most watched and most respected news programm ... Yes, they are critical and professional but at the same time they are biased and manipulative.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 03:33 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.
Even i'm in Hong Kong , i have never heard of this from the news
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Old May 21st, 2006, 04:02 PM   #259
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I've heard of it though.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 04:49 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
most people would interprete that accusation as the chinese government simply sent in army and police and kicked millions of people out of their homes and left them out cold -- this is far far far away from the truth.
Don't twist my words, yeah? How can one interpret my post like that?
And I actually don't take it as truth what I hear in the german media, I just stated what they say. Why some of you feel personally attacked?
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