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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM   #281
tiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
I already told you why I think that partcular report is poor journalism
Nobody knows what the farmer said truly.Maybe he said he loved his hometown,and wouldn't want to move away,but unfortunately this video just showed a subjective report from a german journalist.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:37 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
L
Here is the document, the guy at the end is talking chinese

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhal...wm_dsl,00.html

Why do you regard this as an insult or a lie?
Sorry, all of the original voice is overwhelmed by german interpretation, so I have no way to prove what he was exactly saying. Based on what I have experienced in US, I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying. In addition, there are more than 1 million migrants, it is impossible to avoid a single case of abuse.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:46 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
There is a third way of convincing people: making promises. The people just have to be naive enough to believe in the promises. However I still haven't stated by which method the people were relocated and you are still putting words into my mouth. (And for the records: I haven't stated that the relocated people were naive).
I'm not putting word in your mouth, I'm just trying to argue with you in a logical
fashion. What we are debating is that: how do you convince over 1 million people
to leave their homes and jobs? As you pointed out, there are 3 ways:

(1) Give them sufficient compensation. -- You don't believe this is what happened.

(2) Through military force.

(3) Lie to them.

Can we agree that (2) did not happen on the scale of 1 million people? -- As there has not been any news of large scale masscare and clash between civilians
and military reported in the TGD area, and it would also have tarnished the
image of the dam and the Chinese government forever.

So, as you said, that only leaves the third option. Without making any assumptions w.r.t whether the people were naive enough to buy the
government's lies. The relocation took place a few years ago, and if the over 1
million relocated people still haven't received any compensations, I believe there
would have been a huge riot and nearly impossible to contain without tarnishing
the image of the Chinese government and the dam -- as such riot hasn't been
reported in the TGD area, I don't believe this is what happened either.

Let me just go on record on more time and say that I believe some people have
been under-compensated, but to say all of them have been under-compensated,
it is just too ridiculous to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
They showed only a handful of interviewed people in their program. However they might have interviewed hundreds of relocated people who all said similar things. But this is open for interpretation.
You don't know how many people they interviewed, therefore you should not speculate and expect other people to believe your speculation. Even if they interviewed hundreds of people, it's still debateable whether the sample pool is unbiased -- as satisifed people would have probably started new lives in other parts of China.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
I take this sentence as a personal insult. No need for further discussion with you. If you preach more respect towards others then behave yourself accordingly.
Since when questioning other people's English proficiency is a personal insult? It's
obvious that you speak German and live in Germany, that makes you more likely
to be a native speaker of German and a learner of English. I admit I made an
assumption here, so correct me if I'm wrong. By that statement, I'm telling you
that I'm willing to believe that you made a language mistake instead of an
attempt to slander China -- it was not supposed to be an insult. You are more
than welcome to criticize my English skills and grammar mistakes -- I won't take
it as an insult.

If you really have to be so sensitive, then so be it.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:52 PM   #284
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the farmer(64 years) said that they took his land ( and the land of others in his village) and promised him to give new one.
Then he( and some others) didnt get it because of corruption. Then they wanted to go to court and but theykicked him out with the police.

Quote:
(1) It does not report from the perspective of the government which is one of the two sides of the relocation coin.
The first half of the documentation is about the governemts goals of the dam, but also that there was a strong opposition inside the governemnt against the dam. Only the last third is about that guy.

Personally, I think its the typical german documentation.
Argumentation for it , argumentation against it, interview with residents.
You can see documentations like that for every single road thats built in germany

Quote:
It interviewed only a handful of clearly unsatisfied people (who were most likely under-compensated) and generalized that to over a million people who were also part of the relocation program.
they didnt generalize.
They just showed that poor guy and said that him and some others from his village didnt get the compensation. They didnt´t do a generalisation about the whole million relocated.

I dont regard this as a piece of bad journalism, as the points that you stated do not apply here

Quote:
Sorry, all of the original voice is overwhelmed by german interpretation, so I have no way to prove what he was exactly saying. Based on what I have experienced in US, I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying. In addition, there are more than 1 million migrants, it is impossible to avoid a single case of abuse.
Just because some journalists in the US didnt say the truth doesnt mean that the germans do the same

In the end this discussion is about how serious german journalism is about---
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Old May 21st, 2006, 07:53 PM   #285
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"how do you convince over 1 million people to leave their homes and jobs "

there is another way build a dam and wait till the water rises the one million will leave for sure
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Old May 21st, 2006, 08:06 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
the farmer(64 years) said that they took his land ( and the land of others in his village) and promised him to give new one.
Then he( and some others) didnt get it because of corruption. Then they wanted to go to court and but theykicked him out with the police.
Um ... interesting. Since I haven't seen that report, I cannot comment on exactly what he said. However, I find it a bit hard to understand. Firstly, in order for the corruption to work, the dam official first has to sell the land promised for the farmers then deny the farmers the money, since the land has to be somewhere away from the dam area and also be of farming purpose which means it's not very suitable for development, and since development is generally the primary
reason for land corruption, I just find it a bit hard to believe the dam officials
would go to so much trouble for some farm land. This story would be much more
believeable in other parts of rural China when the land is not flooded to make way
for dams but used for commerical development.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
The first half of the documentation is about the governemts goals of the dam, but also that there was a strong opposition inside the governemnt against the dam. Only the last third is about that guy.
I've pointed out to you in previous occasions that the lack of the government's
perspective on the relocation issue
is what makes this report poor in journalism -- since the focus of our debate is not on whether the dam should be built, but on how well are the relocated people compensated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Personally, I think its the typical german documentation.
Argumentation for it , argumentation against it, interview with residents.
You can see documentations like that for every single road thats built in germany
You can argue for or against whatever you want, but if you are not arguing what is meant to be argued, your argument is still irrelevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
they didnt generalize.
They just showed that poor guy and said that him and some others from his village didnt get the compensation. They didnt´t do a generalisation about the whole million relocated.
According to my impression of what your compatriot said, either he miscommunicated, or the media overgenerlized -- because the most natural
interpretation of your compatriot's original post was that "none of the relocated people were properly compensated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
I dont regard this as a piece of bad journalism, as the points that you stated do not apply here
please read my posts again, and try to understand exactly what issue is being
debated here and see why I regard this particular report is poor on this particular
issue.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 08:14 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
"how do you convince over 1 million people to leave their homes and jobs "

there is another way build a dam and wait till the water rises the one million will leave for sure
are you serious? you really think the chinese government would be so heartless and just drown over a million of its own citizens? you really think the chinese govement would be so stupid to create a million-person riot in the heart of one of
its most expensive piece of engineering work? if you are joking, i have to say it's
a terrible joke.

no matter how evil the chinese government may be, i doubt it has reached the
level of the nazies. no matter what you think, china is not nazi germany and will
probably never become anything similar.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 09:45 PM   #288
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This is by far the most stupid discussion I have read for ages. Congratulations to everyone who contributed to it... A real milestone!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 02:54 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying.
Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 02:58 AM   #290
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I just read the Frankfurter Allgemeine, a well respected news-paper in Germany, this afternoon where they wrote an article about the Sanxia Dam project. The title says that Mao's dream to build this dam got realised. Well, it was not Mao's dream, it was Dr. Sun Zhongshan's (Sun Yatsen) dream, the founding father of the Republic of China. LOL

That is the general problem with German as well as "western" jounrnalism. Most of the journalists don't speak Chinese (I know some of these jounalists who are stationed in China) and of course have a pour understanding of Chinese culture and history.

BTW most editors working for Tagesschau and Tagesthemen are alcoholics and neurotics. What a bunch of idiots!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 03:04 AM   #291
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Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!!

You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes!
And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back.
I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 03:08 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke
Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that
Sorry, the "west" is not free of propaganda. The problem is, most people believe "western" propaganda. Chinese don't believe their state controlled media, certainly not Chinese who live abroad.

Übrigens lebe ich seit 28 Jahren in DLand und habe keine Stunde "Propagandaunterricht" in China genossen.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 03:14 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke
Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!!

You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes!
And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back.
I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.
No, the Tagesschau is not the subject here. But if Germany's most prominent and most respected news-paper and TV news programm have problem with research, history and cultural understanding of China, besides their biased and manipulative methods, what can you expect from poorly funded and organised institutions who need to make money to survive?

I have worked for NDR (Tagesschau, Tagesthemen) and Süddeutsche Zeitung, another well respected news paper, I know what I am talking about!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:00 AM   #294
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Watch the updated news and video please.


http://today.reuters.co.uk/tv/videoC...a7925a4fde49e1
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:50 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke
Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that
Hehe, if the west tries everything they can to prove China's gov't is bad, then surely you can expect what is going to happen.... You really don't need to be very smart to figure that out.

This ranking is very interesting, though, and I think it is very reliable. However, if I ask that which country is the only rich one grows above 7% annually, that is Singapore (check Singapore's ranking please).......So I don't have problem with strong goverment mandate, because I know it is needed in achieving Chinese well-being.

So, if we are not bothered, what is the matter with you?
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 05:57 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke
Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that
so everytime someone from china criticizes something from germany, it's propaganda at work? geez, how is anyone supposed to argue with you germans? haven't you learnt from the fall of the third reich that your germans are not always right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLuke
Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!! You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes! And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back. I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.
again, you committed the exact crime you the accuse the chinese of. this whole discussion started when i pointed out to one of your german compatriots that his description of a german report on the people relocation issue of the TGD cannot possibly be accurate. what did i get back as replies? -- as usual -- chinese propaganda at work!!! so tell me who is the one that cannot deal with criticism here?
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:33 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
no matter how evil the chinese government may be, i doubt it has reached the
level of the nazies. no matter what you think, china is not nazi germany and will
probably never become anything similar.
I wouldnt be too sure about that.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:28 AM   #298
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well i guess you are just gonna have to wait and see.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:49 AM   #299
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Westerners still can't accept the opinion from Chinese when Chinese think China is good. Chinese must be brainwashed and nationalist if Chinese say China is good. Chinese are real only when Chinese say China is bad.

Westerners pre-selected conclusions must be true so they think they have the ability to filter every voice from China.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 08:03 AM   #300
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I think China did the right thing in building this dam. I can't wait to see the lake after the water fills up behind the dam. I wonder if in the future they could modify the generators to output more energy than initially planned.

Also if I'm not mistaken, is the water level gonna rise to the elevation of Chongqing? I'm not sure what large city benefits most from the increased transportation capacity from the higher water level.
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