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Old April 20th, 2005, 06:33 PM   #1
Obelixx
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1200 foot (=365.76 metre) - maximum height for constructions in Eurupe

If someone takes a look in a listing with the tallest construction in Europe, one will soon find out, that in Europe (except former Soviet-Union) there are/were only a few constructions, which are/were taller than 1200 feet (=365.76 metres) and these were with one exception all built before 1963.
These constructions are:
- Longwave radio mast Konstantynow (648 metres, built between 1972 and 1974, collapsed in 1991, http://www.structurae.net/en/structu...0672/index.cfm )
- Longwave radio mast Hellissandur (412 metres, built in 1959, http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0014958 )
- TV Mast Belmont (385 metres, built in 1959, http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0014952 )
- TV Mast Emley Moor (385 metres, built in 1959, destroyed in 1969 by a storm, http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0013859, replaced by 330 metre high concrete tower in 1969-1970, http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0013860 )
- Gerbrandy Tower ( 375 metres, built in 1960, http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0012623 )

The TV Tower in Berlin ( http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0000113 ) was at its inaugauration 361.9 metre high. It is since 1997 368 metre high.

Interestingly all these towers in Europe outside the area of the former Soviet Union were except of the longwave radio mast Konstantynow built before 1963. Why?
I suppose there was/is an inofficial regulation of the NATO-/Warsaw Pacts-States that in Europe no constructions should be built exceeding the 1200 feet (=365.75 metre) mark. That such a regulation exists may result in the replacement of the 385 metre high TV mast Emley Moor by a 330 metre high tower (under radiotechnical views the smaller tower was the worse choice. Why got the new Emley Moore Tower 55 metres lower than the previously used mast? I suppose it was around 1970 not any more allowed to build constructions taller than 1200 feet [=365.75 metres]).

In the USA there is according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast, that constructions taller than 2063 feet(628.8 metres) are not allowed. Why should there exist(ed) not such a regulation for Europe with the only difference that the altitude limit is 1200 feet (365.76 metres)?
According to a request at the German Flight Safety Office there is no official law forbidding constructions taller then 365.76 metres in Germany and Europe, but there may exist an informal law not to give building permissions for any kind of constructions taller than 365.76 metres!
(In opposite to the USA getting construction licenses for tall radio towers is a very long lasting procedure in Europe)

It is very remarkable that just under the 365.75 metre limit there are many constructions in Europe as the radio masts of Donebach, Zehlendorf, the TV tower Berlin (which exceeds since 1997), the Trbovlje Chimney below this mark, but only the few upper mentioned examples are taller and except of the radio mast in Konstantynow none was built after 1961!

In 1982 the 180 metre high masts of the longwave transmitter Donebach ( http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0010719 ) were replaced by taller ones. For these originally two 490 metre high constructions should be according to http://forum.myphorum.de/read.php?f=...=55956&t=54569 used, but then because of regulations from the German Flight Safety Office only 363 metre high masts were allowed and this, although there is no airport in the area of Donebach!
And I suppose that in the USA where there are many radio masts taller than 365.76 metres ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_masts ) and more small private planes than in Germany there are surely not airplane crashes in tall masts every week!
Why should therefore two 490 metre high masts far away from an airport be a greater danger for aircrafts than two 363 metre high masts?

In Germany there is a LORAN-C station at Rantum ( http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0012015 ). This station is in operation since 1966 and uses a 190 metre high guyed mast, which was replaced by a new mast of the same height in 1996. Until Mid of the ninties it was as the transmitter in Hellissandur a LORAN-C secondary. But why was for this facility in Germany a mast with a height of 190 metres used and not as in Iceland a construction with a height of 412 metres? Such a construction would give surely a better antenna for the transmission frequency of LORAN-C (100kHz)!

The radio mast in Konstantynow was a half-wave radiator for the longwave frequency 225 kHz. It was built in respect of the workout of the waveplan of Geneva, the new waveplan regulating the distributions of frequencies in the long- and mediumwave broadcasting range. The workout of a new waveplan for long- and mediumwave replacing the obsolete Waveplan of Kopenhagen was announced in the sixties and done in 1974/75. By the construction of the 2000kilowatt transmitter Konstantynow with its 648 metre high mast, which was a very excellent antenna for 225 kHz, Poland managed to get an exclusive claim at the workout of the waveplan of Geneva for the longwave frequency 225 kHz. Although this frequency was also allocated to some other sites in Europe, the frequency 225 kHz was not used by any other radio station in Europe and Russia until 1993!

It is remarkable that when in the 20ies it was planned to install a shortwave aerial on the top of the (in 1972 collapsed) Cental Tower in Koenigswusterhausen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central...s_Wusterhausen ) this was against the regulations of the Treaty of Versailles, because this measure would have it made to a construction, taller than Eiffel Tower!
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Old April 21st, 2005, 11:37 AM   #2
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To be honest i don't think that regulations where the reason to set the limit on 365m, i suppose there was no nood for building taller structures.

Tour Sans Fins in Paris proves that, too bad the tower was cancelled. Correct if i'm wrong, but i believe the tower was approved. It should have been 425 m tall, making it the tallest structure in Europe and one of the tallest skyscrapers in the world.





Paris had also plans in the 60's to built a tv tower of 750 m tall. They were never built on several reasons, but it has nothing to do with NATO regulations as you suggest.
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Old April 21st, 2005, 12:36 PM   #3
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But for some radiotechnical purposes (longwave broadcasting, high power FM/TV-broadcasting, VLF) structures taller than 365 metres make sense under technical views!

And: why are there in the USA so many radio masts taller than 365 metres ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_masts )?
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Old April 21st, 2005, 01:49 PM   #4
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Europe is in size smaller than the US, so for radiotechnical purposes the tower doens't need to be that tall.
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Old April 21st, 2005, 03:26 PM   #5
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But in Europe it is often desired to spread programmes in areas of other countries and therefore tall towers are very sensitive when UHF/VHF-frequencies are used.
And in opposite to USA, there are broadcasting stations in the longwave range and as for medium wave transmitters musts with heights around the half-wave length of the transmitted frequency show a better radiation characteristics than those with heights around a quater of the wavelength of the radiaed frequency (the radio mast in Konstantynow was a half-wave radiator for the frequency 225 kHz)

Beside this: are in Russia guyed masts for FM- or longwave transmissions taller than 360 metres? (Nearly no data are available about Russian radio masts, except of TV towers in Big Cities. One of these exceptions is Taldom transmitter [ http://www.structurae.net/structures...fm?ID=s0014896 ])

How is the situation in Canada and Australia? How many guyed radio masts taller then 365 metres exist in these countries? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_masts there are only a few and none of them taller than 427 metres.
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 01:01 PM   #6
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this is just bullshit!, it's the type of ground and the type of construction what tell how tall you can build in europe.

and the type of ground isn't in europe everywhere the same, is it?
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Old April 24th, 2005, 09:26 PM   #7
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how many stories would that be can someone give me a total.
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Old April 25th, 2005, 06:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelixx
How is the situation in Canada and Australia? How many guyed radio masts taller then 365 metres exist in these countries? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_masts there are only a few and none of them taller than 427 metres.
I don't think any of the tall masts in Australia are used for television transmission, I know in Melbourne and most other cities, 200m towers are placed on top of a mountain, so you effectively have heights of over 700m above sea level.

The 427m Omega mast near Sale and the 13 masts at Exmouth were all used by the navy for communication with submarines. The Omega mast is now mothballed.
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Old May 18th, 2005, 12:51 PM   #9
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How should it have look like, the 750 metre high TV tower planned at Paris in the sixties? Is it correct, that it was designed by Jan Polak, the engineer, who latter built the 646 metre radio mast at Gabin-Konstantynow?
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Old May 22nd, 2005, 10:48 PM   #10
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In most European cities, is/was forbitten to build higher then the historic churches building.
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Old May 23rd, 2005, 01:33 PM   #11
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Hm I think Antwerp is a good example of that. There are no buildings (planned or existing) taller than the Cathedral of Our Lady (123m).


Above 365,76m in Europe:

Spain, Gibraltar, Gibraltar Super Bridge: 914,4m (vision)
France, Paris, TV Tower La D馭ense: 750m (cancelled)
Russia, Moscow, Russia Tower: 648m (proposed)
Poland, Konstantynow, Warszawa Radio Mast: 645,4m (destroyed)
Belgium, Brussels, Magnel Tower: 629m (cancelled)
United Kingdom, London, Space-Pod: 455m (600m with antenna) (fantasy)
Turkey, Istanbul, 3 Empires Tower: 600m (stale proposal)
Russia, Moscow, Ostankino Tele Tower: 385,5m (540,1m with antenna)
Netherlands, Rotterdam, Parkhaventoren: 392m (501m with spire) (cancelled)
Russia, Moscow, Trigular: 500m (fantasy)
Russia, Moscow, Palace of the Soviets: 415m (495m with spire) (cancelled)
Norway, North Sea, Troll A: 472m
United Kingdom, London, Southwark Tower: 470m (vision)
United Kingdom, London, Mallory Clifford Project: 470m (cancelled)
United Kingdom, London, Citygate Ecotower: 460m (vision)
United Kingdom, London, Green Bird: 442m (cancelled)
Russia, Moscow, Federation: 340m (440m with spire) (construction)
Russia, Moscow, Palace of Progress: 435m (fantasy)
France, Courbevoie, Tour Sans Fin: 425,6m (cancelled)
Turkey, Istanbul, Imar Plaza: 420m (cancelled)
Iceland, Sandur, Loran Tower: 411m
Russia, Saint Petersburg, Monument to the 3rd International: 400m (cancelled)
Russia, Moscow, 17-18 IBC: 398m (proposed)
Monaco, Monte Carlo, Sea Tower: 390,1m (cancelled)
United Kingdom, London, Millennium Tower: 386m (cancelled)
United Kingdom, London, London Bridge Tower: 385,6m (cancelled)
Ukraine, Kyiv, TV Tower: 385m
United Kingdom, Belmont, TV Mast: 385m
United Kingdom, Huddersfield, Emley Moor Mk. 2: 385m (destroyed)
Spain, Valencia, Torre de Calatrava: 382m (cancelled)
Norway, North Sea, Gullfaks C: 380m
Italy, Messina, Messina Straight Bridge: 376m (proposed)
Netherlands, Ijsselstein, Professor Gerbrandytoren: 100m (375m with antenna)
Latvia, Riga, Radio & TV Tower: 368,5m
Germany, Berlin, Fernsehturm: 250m (368m with antenna)

I don't really believe that there is a maximum height. Why should that be?
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Old May 23rd, 2005, 01:54 PM   #12
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In my claim at the beginning of the thread, I poined out the area of former Soviet-Union. Links to all constructions taller than 365.76 metres in Europe, which were BUILT can be also found there.
Concerning not-built structures: surely everbody may make plans for tall structures and perhaps some of them were publically discussed, but they are for me just pipe dreams until no construction work started!
I believe o a maximum regulation for constructions of all kind in Europe (except Russia) of the desire of military offices to have the air-space above 365.76 metres free from obstacles.
In the USA it is not allowed to build any constructions taller than 628.8 metres, the height of the KVLY-TV-mast, so there will be no taller construction in USA than the KVLY-TV-mast!
And: all realized constructions in Europe (without areas of former Soviet-Union) taller than 365.76 metres were with one exception (the Warsaw Radio Mast) all built before 1963!
The question remains: why were after 1963 no other cnstructions taller than 365.76 metres realized in Europe (without former Soviet-Union)?
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