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Old April 28th, 2005, 12:09 AM   #1
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NANCY | Public Transport

I wanna know: Is the Bombardier tram-on-tyres in Nancy operating, despite the problems? I wanna see any picsand technical informations... thanx

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Old April 28th, 2005, 05:53 AM   #2
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Those Bombardier TVR aren't tram on tyres. They are guided buses that use bodies of LRTs to disguise them. They have a steering wheel and operates like a long bus, including some routes in Nancy. And overall, they have been a technological disaster, which is a plus for rail proponents.

The only true tram on tyres are the ones made by Translohr. Unlike the Bombardier TVR, the Translohr rubber tired tram are bi-directional and don't leave the guideway. Plus the ride of the Translohr is practically at par with LRTs. Fortunately, the proprietory nature of such beasts ensures that the conventional LRTs will continue to be the preferred choice of light rapid transit for centuries to come.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 02:01 AM   #3
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Bombardier's guided bus system for Nancy has been plagued by technical problems; however, other guided bus systems have been quite successful. The pictures below are of the Civis buses operating in Las Vegas, which are equiped with optical guidance equipment to follow dashed lines painted in the roadway. This allows the bus to dock with station platforms very precisely. An electric trolley bus version is also available. The Civis system duplicates most of the benefits of a conventional tram without the expense of the rail infrastructure:













The following are two videos of the MAX operation:

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max...0guidance.mpeg

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max...0guidance.mpeg

For more information, see the website for the Southern Nevada Regional Transportation Commission:

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/
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Old April 29th, 2005, 02:46 AM   #4
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The following is some information on the Translohr system:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lohr.fr/transport-public.htm











--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mitsui-tr.co.jp/english/goods/translohr.htm



Import of Proto-type Rubber Tire LRT “Translohr” from Lohr Industrie, France

Rubber tire LRT "TRANSLOHR"

Mitsui & Co., Ltd. entered into a purchase contract with Lohr Industrie for a rubber tire vehicle LRT called “Translohr” to conduct a series of safety tests. At the same time, Mitsui, Toshiba, Nippon Densetsu Kogyo, Totetsu Kogyo, Daitetsu Kogyo, Tokyu Car Corporation, and MITSUI BUSSAN Transportation System agreed to cooperate for construction, maintenance and operation of the test line, which includes a sub-station, catenaries, rail, running track, and maintenance facilities.

The test line will be approx. 500 meters and is planned to be constructed on the premises of the Nippon Steel Sakai works, located in Sakai city, Osaka prefecture. The series of tests and demonstrations of Translohr, using one train set composed of 3 cars, to the potential customers, such as local governments and railway operators, are scheduled to be executed during a 3-year period starting from 2004 April.

Translohr is a rubber tire LRT (Light Rail Transit) with 100% super low floor cabin. The most significant characteristic is a single rail laid in the center of its track, which is used as a guiding system. Upon completion of its development in 2001 by Lohr Industrie S.A., France, Translohr has gained much attention in Europe recently as a new generation public transportation system, having successfully obtained 4 contracts in Europe. Translohr possesses the following advantages over conventional steel wheel LRT, which allow for minimal modification of existing infrastructures, resulting in the reduction of cost and the construction period and provides more ample choice to the operators in defining the route:
- Simplified and lightweight track structure.
- Lightweight vehicle.
- Increase of the vehicle’s capabilities by the use of rubber tires, such as use on gradients, improved deceleration and acceleration, comfort, low noise (high performance with environmental friendly system).

Mitsui has been passionately working for the diffusion of a straddle-type monorail since the Expo in Osaka in 1970, and has accumulated experience not only in Japan in the project management of a series of E&M procurement and installation projects, but also in China for the supply of vehicles, switches, and signals for the Chongqing city project. Making use of these experiences, Mitsui is committed to promoting Translohr as a pioneer in the LRT market in Asia through the demonstration of the technology.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.apta.com/services/intnatl.../paristram.cfm

Elegant, Modular Rubber-Tire Tram Debuts in Paris Guideway Demonstration
The Translohr, a new generation rubber tire electric transit system, recently began demonstration runs on the 12.5-kilometer Trans Val de Marne Bus Rapid Transit corridor operated by APTA member Regie Autonome des Transports Parisiens, the public transit authority in Paris.

One of three novel medium-size guided transit systems, the Translohr, turned out by France’s Lohr Industrie takes its place in sequential demonstrations on the Paris BRT corridor along with Bombardier's Guided Light Transit and the Irisbus Civis vehicle. The Trans Val de Marne BRT corridor is being made available for tests of the advanced hybrid and rubber tire transit systems in limited revenue service to allow teams from French cities in search of future medium capacity systems to see competitors' vehicles on a "level playing field," according to Guy Bourgeois, the RATP project administrator.

The TVR dual mode guided vehicle was operated on the corridor for about two years, carrying 240,000 passengers a total of 300,000 km, and receiving visits from 160 delegations. The demonstration of the tramway-type modular Translohr began in December 2000 and is expected to run through 2001, to be succeeded by the optically guided dual mode Civis next year.

Three French cities and suburban jurisdictions in the Ile de France region surrounding Paris have opted thus far for the GLT, while Translohr is in the bidding stage. Civis has already been selected by several French communities and will be on display in Las Vegas during the APTA Annual Meeting and EXPO in September 2002,with the first production vehicle due to arrive for service in Las Vegas in May 2003.

A consortium of more than two dozen public and private partners, most of them French, are funding the combined demonstrations to allow elected officials and transit planners to make appropriate choices for their respective cities.

The modular, bi-direction Translohr now in operation on the Val de Marne Busway, guided along a shallow central rail, varies in length from 18 to 39 meters; it can carry from 2,000 to 5,000 passengers per hour and direction, depending on the number of articulated modules chosen. It can go off line under its own battery power to return to the depot or negotiate wireless stretches or tunnels. The manufacturer also states that the vehicle is low floor throughout, has a narrow turning circle, can negotiate gradients up to 13 percent, and costs half as much to build than a conventional tramway.

The RATP is promoting a Europe-wide research project to compare and bench, mark the new rubber-tired, bi-modal guided systems to recommend vehicle safety standards. A total of 24 partners in five countries—France, Italy, Spain, Sweeden, and the United Kingdom—-have signed up.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 03:19 AM   #5
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Bombardier's website features a couple of webpages describing the guided bus system produced for Nancy:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_2/1_2_2_2_1.jsp

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_2/1_2_2_2_1_1.jsp



A good description of the problems encountered with the Nancy guided bus can be found at the following website:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/Tvr.html

Light Rail Now features a somewhat strident webpage concerning the problems with the Nancy system:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_ncy001.htm
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Old April 29th, 2005, 03:22 AM   #6
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The first Irisbus of the world in Rouen ( Las Vegas people came here before bought their own ), it is wonderful to be inside indeed, air conditionned and so on... it's top !



The second Irisbus (and also second generation, closer to its american brother) is in Clermont-Ferrand.



Sorry, i found them so well designed, i wanted to post pics

Also, this is the one that was sold to american investors ! Put only an american flag on it and iit's money in the pocket lol

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Old April 29th, 2005, 04:46 AM   #7
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I'm not sure how effective the docking mechanism of the Civis guided bus is, especially compared to those pics above and pics from daily operations.

Look how close the Civis is to the platform on the marketing pics but not too close when compared with everyday usage (I found photos of it from Skyscraperpage Gallery by Efren Aquino).

Marketing Pic

Normal Pic


Marketing Pic

Normal Pic


Notice the bus driver is still steering the vehicle even though it is suppose to be self docking.





Also, note how easily the painted lines of the Civis fades. To think this was from a desert city where there isn't really that much rain or snow to make the lines fade so much....





Is Civis really that successful as a BRT vehicle? Other than Las Vegas and a couple of French cities, I've never seen other cities use it or consider it seriously.

Last edited by [email protected]; April 29th, 2005 at 05:00 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 01:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Normal Pic
Thank you for the information. This is the first unfavorable report I have seen regarding the performance of the Civis buses in Las Vegas. There are some other fundamental limitations of the system:

1. It functions reliably only at low speeds.
2. It won't function if the lines are obscured by snow.

One other complaint I've seen is that the diesel hybrid version is not very energy efficient. This seems to be a common complaint of hybrid buses.

Maintenance of the painted lines must be very critical to the performance of the system. It will be interesting to see whether Las Vegas decides to expand the system or junk it.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 02:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otis LA
I wanna know: Is the Bombardier tram-on-tyres in Nancy operating, despite the problems? I wanna see any picsand technical informations... thanx
Yes, it works but the average speed is lower than expected. The second line is postponed and should not use the same technology (one central guiding rail).
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Old April 29th, 2005, 06:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender
Yes, it works but the average speed is lower than expected. The second line is postponed and should not use the same technology (one central guiding rail).
Wow! thats *very* interesting - so they are going to look at the Translohr then?

I think the French systems also onlyallow for "hands free" operation at low speeds. The guidance system was originally designed to assist with "docking" at bus stops - not for full time use.

Clermont-Ferrand found the hybrid Civis buses to be so expensive and fuel inefficent that they are switching back to regular diesel buses.

Milan is introducing the 100% electric versions (unguided) as upgrades on its trolleybus system. Similar also operate in Lyon and have been found to be much more economical.

Another Italian city (its name escapes me right now) is also poised to introduce a large fleet of these buses (around 50) - but again in 100% electric format.

There is much more info (plus pics) on this webpage...

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Buses03.htm

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Last edited by spsmiler; April 30th, 2005 at 12:19 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
Similar also operate in Lyon and have been found to be much more economical.
Yes, the "trolley" version of the civis used in Lyon is excellent: It goes fast, and I think it's more powerfull than a diesel bus.



....and the snow is not really a problem

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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TipNTop
Yes, the "trolley" version of the civis used in Lyon is excellent: It goes fast, and I think it's more powerfull than a diesel bus.


....and the snow is not really a problem



Remember though, they do NOT use the guidance system in Lyon (not yet, anway).

Simon

ps, like the pics!
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Old April 30th, 2005, 03:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine
I looked through Mr. Aquino's Skyscraper gallery. One of the first photos in the Las Vegas guided bus sequence is the following:

The caption states, "Irisbus Civis stuck in traffic." This is pure speculation on my part, but what are the chances that the bus was delayed by traffic and that the driver chose to regain some schedule time by approaching stations at higher speeds than allowed for the optical guidance system? As the bus approaches each station, the driver can clearly see the people waiting on the platform. If none of the people waiting appear to have disabilities, it would be perfectly reasonable to approach at higher speed and not use the optical guidance system. Of course, it is impossible to know for sure that this was the case without having a statement from the driver.
But if you look at the pics closely that I posted, it seems that at least two buses are involved in the Skyscraperpage gallery. One is driven by a woman (if you look closely on the one where the bus is about to dock at a station with the cop, you can see red manicured nails) and one is driven by an African American. In both instances, despite the optical guidance of the Civis, they still use their hands to steer the bus. Given that the optical guidance feature inflates the price of a Civis, it makes you wonder why would you buy such a vehicle for your bus fleet if drivers still use their hands to steer.

Also, the fact that the Civis bus, a supposedly alternative to rapid rail transit, gets stuck in traffic, is very slow and very fuel inefficient, and does not provide rail like service in a full time basis (marketing pics vs normal pics) does make you question the value of such a system. Why not just use cheaper conventional buses with skilled drivers? Or if you really like the look of the Civis, just use the unguided trolley version?

As far as successes are concerned, again, how many cities have opted for the Civis vs conventional LRT or even conventional buses for BRT? I heard a rumour somewhere that the Irisbus North America office have moved from New Jersey to Las Vegas, presumably for the sole purpose of servicing the existing 10 Irisbus Civis fleet that operate in that city because Irisbus North America failed to sell these buses to cities looking to build BRT systems such as Atlanta or Charlotte.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 05:54 AM   #14
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I think that the Civis bus vehicles are very nice buses. However, I would not describe Las Vegas' system as true Rapid Transit. True it does have level boarding, but it doesn't run on dedicated corridors and therefore competes with traffic. To have true Rapid Transit you need vehicles operating on dedicated corridors that aren't interfered with by traffic. I think that a good BRT system will be like an LRT on rubber tires, kind of like the Montreal Metro uses rubber tires. The Metro is still considered a subway, then why should we treat a BRT system that operates on dedicated corridors with service equal to that of LRT as inferior? Also a BRT system will be flexible at the end will be able to get off the guideway to serve a specific destination. There will still need to be feeder buses for it is impractical and impossible to eliminate transfers.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 07:18 AM   #15
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The Montreal Metro is not a bus. Its a train that happens to use rubber tires instead of steel wheels. It has no steering wheel, it operates like a train and cannot get out of its guideway.

And the reason why BRTs are inferior is because they are buses, not trains. Its not just about service level; its also about psychology and attractiveness. You can make buses look like trains but they are still buses and therefore continue to hold the stigma that sticks to buses. People are simply not attracted to buses as they are to trains. And if people want flexibility, they would use their own rubber tire vehicles.....their own car!

The attractiveness of rail based systems is the fact that they are NOT flexible. They are permanent and it is that sense of permanence that give the route and area the presence of a dedicated and decent rapid transit system that would allow residents and developers to build transit oriented development.

Bombardier and Irisbus try to make their buses look like trains but the commuting public has not been fooled and their systems are just crap.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 08:28 AM   #16
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I can see how the new buses look better and are probably much more comfortable. They would be suitable for high traffic level routes or Transitways like Ottawa's {bus lanes completly separated from the streets by there own bus roads.
But the guided one's I thinkjk would be somwhat useless in climates with cold weather, snow, and ice.
they do have the stigma of still just being a bus.

I can, however, see these as being very practible in the develpoing worls. Cheaper than LRT or subway and buses don't have the negative stigma there.
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Old April 30th, 2005, 05:23 PM   #17
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Much of the discussion on this thread has focused on pictures from Mr. Aquino's Skyscraper gallery of the Las Vegas Civis buses. I thought I should post the full collection of pictures along with the captions for those who are interested. There are 20 pictures, so I'm only posting the thumbnails and providing links to the full size versions. The original gallery can be found at the following link:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/sh...er=190&stype=2

1. "Irisibus Civis actually broke down in my trip"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...sbrokedown.jpg

2. "Irisbus Civis in downtown Las Vegas"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...intraffic2.jpg

3. "Irisbus Civis in an intersection"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...trainlike2.jpg

4. "Irisbus Civis stuck in traffic"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...intraffic1.jpg

5. "IrisBus Civis is truly a bus, not a rubber tire tram"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...ttrainlike.jpg

6. "Irisbus Civis not too close to the station 2"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...tooprecise.jpg

7. "Irisbus Civis not too close to the station"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...ooprecise2.jpg

8. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless4"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...eisuselss4.jpg

9. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless3"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...isuseless3.jpg

10. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless2"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...isuseless2.jpg

11. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless1"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...isuseless1.jpg

12. "Gap between the guided bus and station 4"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...indocking4.jpg

13. "Gap between the guided bus and station 3"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...indocking3.jpg

14. "Gap between the guided bus and station 2"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...indocking2.jpg

15. "Gap between the guided bus and station 1"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...indocking1.jpg

16. "Fading guiding white lines of the Irisbus Civis 2"


http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...adedlines2.jpg
17. "Fading guiding white lines of the Irisbus Civis"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...fadedlines.jpg

18. "Las Vegas Downtown Transit Center"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dtc.jpg

19. "Dirty white guidance lines"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...dirtylines.jpg

20. "Interior of the Irisbus Civis"

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/da...isinterior.jpg

Pictures 5 and 18 seem to have been taken in the transit center, which has no guidance lines for the buses. Picture 5 might represent a typical docking situation for the bus when the guidance system is not used. The gap appears to be about a foot.

Pictures 6, 12, 13, 14, and 15 probably appear to have been taken at stations with the guidance lines. Figure 15 includes the toe of a shoe for reference. I would estimate the gap at between 4" and 6". ADA requirements are for a maximum 5/8" vertical gap and a 3" horizontal gap for rail vehicles or a 1" horizontal gap for automated guideway people movers. (I guess the rail industry's political lobby was a lot more effective than the people mover industry's political lobby.) The gap shown in the pictures clearly does not meet the ADA requirements.

The docking precision claimed for the Civis system is +/- 3.5 cm, which is about 1 3/8". Clearly this wasn't achieved in the pictures of the Las Vegas system. Without more information, it is impossible to know whether this was because the guidance lines were faded, the drivers were in a hurry and intervened, or the system just plain failed to work.

There is a good US DOT report at the link below on trials of the various rubber-tired tram systems in Paris. Unfortunately, the report does not include any information on the conclusions of the trials:

http://www.calstart.org/programs/brt...rip_report.pdf
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Old April 30th, 2005, 08:44 PM   #18
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WOW!!!! The Civis is suppose to be brand new but it actually broke down as seen in PIC #1!!! I think that pic alone shows that the system has indeed failed.

Also, I think the gaps are an important point on why the system isn't as good as it is suppose to be. One nifty thing about modern rail based system are people in wheel chairs and strollers can simply roll from the platform to the vehicle without the aide of ramps. This results in much faster boarding times. If a ramp is required for the Civis, then what would be the point of the docking system? It would just slow down boarding, thus eliminating the "rapid" part of the BRT.

Did a google search on "Irisbus Civis" and "Skyscraperpage" together since there must be a thread in the forum that also discusses this. The reaction of the people in the thread seems to be utter dread and relief when the transit authority opted for light rail instead so I don't think this vehicle is loved by all.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...threadid=49070

The thread is very interesting because it shows some kind of historical evolution on how this guided bus was proposed in the Vancouver area and was later rejected for a much more conventional LRT (which is the focus of the thread in the later pages).

Last edited by [email protected]; April 30th, 2005 at 08:50 PM.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 12:42 AM   #19
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It doesn't seem as cool as light rail in my opinion.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 12:54 AM   #20
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very futuristic
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