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Old August 22nd, 2012, 03:26 PM   #221
MarcVD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modorney View Post
Any more news as to when Fyra (V250) trains will run to Brussels?
Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
it means that direct services with Dordrecht and Den Haag, and
to a lesser extent Roosendaal, will be lost.

Will the existing rolling stock be reused by NS-Reizigers in domestic
service ?

In Belgium, the 28xx locs made free will return to the freight service,
and that will be the final push on the exclusion of the old but iconic 20xx locs.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 04:12 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
it means that direct services with Dordrecht and Den Haag, and
to a lesser extent Roosendaal, will be lost.
It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.

Roosendaal will still be accessible via regional trains from Antwerpen. On the other hand, Roosendaal will get, I think, another national train service up north running 16x/day

Den Haag will still be reachable faster with a transfer in Rotterdam Centraal as there are huge time savings on the Antwerpen-Rotterdam sector.

I think they have or had projects for some Fyra services starting in Den Haag Centraal and calling at Rotterdam, Breda and Antwerpen, and arriving in Bruxelles Midi.
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 06:21 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.
As Fyra International will not call at Zaventem Airport, travellers will need to change with all their luggage at Antwerpen Centraal.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 02:45 AM   #224
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Brussels National Airport ("Zaventem") does not play a key role as Schiphol does when it comes to being a rail hub. The airport is important for Belgium, but it's of little importance to rail passengers.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 11:31 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is a huge improvement...
This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 05:28 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?
As in any transportation service with yield management, some people win, some people lose, the median price goes surely down and sometimes the average price as well.

The case you described ("I woke up and just decided to travel from Charleroi to Enkhuizen leaving next hour") is probably a case of someone who'd pay substantially more for its "on-the-spur-of-the-moment" trip. But many people will be benefited with lower fares if they can plan in advance.

Today, Thalys already offer advanced fares that are cheaper than Benelux fares, but they do sell out quickly with 3-5 weeks in advance. When the Benelux train is retired and Fyra comes live, there will be more competition as all trains will require seat reservations, even if made 5 min before the train leaves in a ticket machine.

Then, people like students travelling on holidays/weekends, tourists from far away (that took a flight to Europe), people who commute couple times a week on the route etc., day-trippers going for a concert with known date couple weeks in advance, relatives going to family functions will all benefit from lower prices. Business travelers, people who "must" travel on short notice etc. will pay more. Seems appropriate for me.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:13 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD

This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?
Well, you're not entitled to everything staying the same. In the future you will have three options:

- More expensive then now, but at higher speed and quality.
- the same at a lower price if you book in advance, with prices possibly being a lot lower then they are at the moment.
- with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.

Given that that the first two options amongst others guarantee a seat, something that is a huge improvement over the current service I would always go for that...
I do a lot of spur of the moment train travel, but on international trains I always reserve seats. And if you have had the foresight to reserve you do get quite annoyed if your train incurs a long delay because of standing passengers without reservation.

What I however do expect of Fyra is that they make it easy for people with flexible tickets to change their reservation. For example just sending an SMS should be enough. And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 10:02 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
- with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.
At least we still have that indeed. That's not the case everywhere. I have
already tried to do it for Brussels-Paris, for example, and it is still feasable,
but only for very seasoned train travellers, and requires much more time.
Even with the change at Roosendaal, this still remains a hourly service
seven days a week...
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.
That would be the best of both worlds. But I fear it won't happen, because
when that car will get full, standing passengers will then invade all other
cars on the train. Seeing the current load on those trains, I bet this would
happen far too often. And passengers in reserved cars certainly won't
appreciate too much.
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Old October 12th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #229
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In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.

What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?
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Old October 12th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #230
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They actually had several classes before the class 11, 12, 21 & 27 that were introduced in the early 1980s.

class: year, total produced:
Class 28: 1949, 3
Class 29: 1949, 20
Class 22: 1953, 50
Class 23: 1955, 83
Class 25: 1960, 22
Class 15: 1962, 5
Class 26: 1964, 35
Class 16: 1966, 8
Class 18: 1973, 6
Class 20: 1975, 25
(Some of the numbers are now being reused by new locomotives.)

The locomotives in the class 1* where mostly used for international passenger trains since these are all multisystem locomotives. The the class 2* where used for both domestic passenger trains and freight trains.

Class 29
image hosted on flickr

Rangeringen met locs 2913, 2551 en TSP 6077 by John Liekens, on Flickr

Class 23
image hosted on flickr

2341 en 2326 en een korte unit cargo by John Liekens, on Flickr

Class 20
image hosted on flickr

2013 met een gemengde goederentrein by John Liekens, on Flickr
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Old October 12th, 2012, 06:45 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modorney View Post
In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.

What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?
I suppose you question was : what kind of electric locos were used to pull
the Brussels-Amsterdam before the HLE 11 came in place ?

That was HLE 25.5, dual voltage 1500/3000 DC. They pulled a consist made
of 2 SNCB cars and 4 NS cars, one of them equipped with a driver's cabin.

Some pictures on http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/ and a picture
of the whole consist at http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=h...gQ9QEwAg&dur=0
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Old October 15th, 2012, 01:35 AM   #232
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Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?

I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)

Another question - Märklin 4397 cars - http://www.collector-modeltrains.com...em/MT-0841889/
When were they used ? What was used to pull them? How long were the trains?
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modorney View Post
Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?
Now, electric service on that line only started in the 60ies. Until then the international trains were diesel hauled. That is what it looked like:


Quote:
I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)
Before the war only Brussel - Antwerpen and Brussel Tervuren (the latter later nationalised and promptly closed in the 50ies) were electric.
They both used EMUs. EMUs were never used to pull unpowerd trailers in Belgium AFAIK.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 10:49 AM   #234
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The last non electrified gap on the Brussel - Amsterdam route was closed in 1957 when the line between Antwerp and Roosendaal in the Netherlands was electrified. This was also the year the Beneluxtrain started operation. These where operated by EMUs that were based on the Dutch class Mat '54 that where owned by the NS and the NMBS/SNCB. From 1974 push-pull trains where also used with the Belgian class 25.5 locomotives and a mix of Belgian and Dutch carriages. For the other international trains the electrical age only started in the 1960s when class 15 was used for the TEE trains between Paris and Amsterdam.

electrification time line:
Amsterdam - Rotterdam: 1927
Rotterdam - Dordrecht: 1934
Antwerp - Brussel: 1935
Dordrecht - Roosendaal: 1950
Roosendaal - Antwerp: 1957



The Märklin 4397 cars are originally German cars, either they came to Belgium as WW1 reparations or they were stranded in Belgium after WW2 and used by the Belgium railways. I can't find any info on where they were used, so I don't think that there where many of these cars in Belgium. They might have been used on regional lines with a steam or diesel locomotive.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #235
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Thanks for all the updates. It is interesting that Amsterdam-Rotterdam was electrified before Brussels-Antwerp.

Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?

Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?
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Old October 16th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modorney View Post
Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?
Commuters from Tervuren mostly take the car (like most commuters) and spend lots of time at a snails pace (like most commuters).
The line to Tervuren was closed once it was nationalised, part of it has been reused for tram 39 (the Tulpen - Ban Eik section if you want to look it up on the map). On arial pictures (like on google maps) you can still make out most of the rest of the route. It's really a shame it was closed. It would have been a good addition to the Metro network.
The FLemish Government has some plans for now light rail services around Brussel, and these might come to Tervuren too.

Quote:
Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?
What it would mean for Wallonia would be up to the Walloons. For Flanders it would probably mean that regional rail finally gets integrated with busses and trams, as it should, and that idiotic situations, like suburban railway lines that only run once ever hour, and not at all on weekends finally disappear.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:20 AM   #237
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I've just returned from a long weekend in Belgium. We've moved around with a train quite a lot and I have to say that the system is a big step down compared with the one in Switzerland or Germany (almost every train was late!)... Antwerp central station, however, is a bright spot - one of the best looking train stations I've been to.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #238
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raillines in Belgium have severe bottlenecks in bigger cities. This means if one train runs late for 30min, the whole scedule get f**ked up.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:05 AM   #239
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Ring Ring....telephone crossing eh?

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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:39 AM   #240
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It was defective. Some object interfering with the signaling.

This is how Belgian level crossings normally sound like

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