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Old January 10th, 2015, 04:09 PM   #521
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Politician recommends a shower after a Belgian train trip

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Old January 10th, 2015, 05:28 PM   #522
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I do not find those pictures exemplary for the Belgian train stock. It's more exceptional. Except graffiti which really is an issue.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 08:22 PM   #523
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I also can't say I've seen a train in such a state lately. Besides, those trains don't become so filthy on their own... Graffiti however is indeed still a big issue. They should simply not allow trains with graffiti on them to start the day, but sadly enough we lack the buffer in rolling stock for that. Also, properly punishing caught vandals would also help a lot.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 09:20 PM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
I do not find those pictures exemplary for the Belgian train stock...
It is exemplary in this way though: it's a daily reality (not some one-off incident) basically all trains all day on certain routes to certain areas of the country are like that. The reason is because apparently the Belgian Railways never renovates (that train type is over 40 years old and that's exactly how it looked 40 years ago). Basically refreshing older rolling stock is non-existent. The NMBS/SNCB only repairs stuff that is broken and send the cleaning crew to sweep the floors and empty the very small size rubbish bins - that's it
.

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Old January 10th, 2015, 09:58 PM   #525
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This is a general Belgian attitude: constant maintenance of outdoor property is alien to their culture - they prefer to let things decay and then start from zero (buy new or build from scratch). This is exemplified not only by that train but also by the stations it passes: way too many train stations there look like no one has touched them since World War one or something - as if they have never been maintained and/or renovated since the they were first built. The sun-burnt paints are lierally cracking and dropping off. Platform floor tiles are crooked and crumbling like cookies (that is if the floors even have tiles - half the time there are no tiles and the platform floor is not paved but "powdered" with grindstones (like walkways in parks). And also the lights are out, by that I mean the train-station name panels on the platforms -- they are totally invisible at night. If you are inside a passing train you have no idea what station you just passed or arrived at, unless you are a local or a regular user
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Old January 11th, 2015, 12:05 PM   #526
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Worst example, Brussel Zuid/Midi, in the tunnel it might look modern, but upstairs even the international platforms look a little dated (80's design, lots of tiles and quite dark). But if you look at the domestic platforms you feel ashamed that this is the main junction and largest station in Belgium. Crumbling, dark, unsafe and a lot of concrete. I've seen stations in the former USSR that look better maintained:


Antwerps rocks, but the stations in Brussels are terrible.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 10:48 PM   #527
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^ The only conclusion you can take is that the SNCB/NMBS is letting it decay so that then the government gives green-light to a complicated and costly makover, which is desired by the construction and property-speculating mafia that has extreme control over Belgian political apparatus.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 09:31 AM   #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Ludovico center View Post
The reason is because apparently the Belgian Railways never renovates (that train type is over 40 years old and that's exactly how it looked 40 years ago). Basically refreshing older rolling stock is non-existent. The NMBS/SNCB only repairs stuff that is broken and send the cleaning crew to sweep the floors and empty the very small size rubbish bins - that's it.
I'm sorry to contradict you sir, but actually, this is totally untrue - in fact it's
quite the opposite.

The oldest stock currently in use on belgian rails are the 2-cars EMUs.
Built as of 1966. But all those still used today have been completely rebuilt
in the last 10 years. See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_classique
for details (in french).

The oldest stock still in its initial state are the 4-cars EMUs that were
produced as of 1975. Their renovation program is about to start, Mechelen
works is currently busy with a prototype.

Break EMUs (initially 2-cars, 3rd card added later) built as of 1980 are now
undergoing a massive renovation program. Between 10 and 20 have already
been treated on a total of 140, and before that, they already went through
a light renovation program when the intermediate car was added.

Suburban EMUs, delivered as of 1986, are currently being renovated as well.

Regarding coaches, the oldest stock still in service is the M4 stock, built as
of 1980. 580 cars, all modernized between 20 and 10 years ago.

M5 double deck coaches have been completely rebuilt in the last few years.

So in conclusion, nothing that was built before the year 1995 runs on the
belgian network without having been renovated. The only exception is the
4-car EMUs (AM75), because the initial plan was to have them scrapped
before 2015. This plan was only changed recently.

Next time you make such assertions, check your facts first !
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 06:01 PM   #529
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=529

Alstom-Bombardier poised for SNCB double-deck order
Friday, January 23, 2015



BELGIAN federal minister for mobility Mrs Jacqueline Galant told the country's parliament on January 23 that only one bidder, a consortium of Alstom and Bombardier, is in the running for a framework contract to supply a fleet of inter-city double-deck EMUs to Belgian National Railways (SNCB)

The order for 200km/h dual-voltage (3kV dc and 25kV 50Hz ac) trains could be worth €3bn if all options are exercised. Deliveries are due to start in 2017, although Galant told the house it is "unlikely" any trains will enter service in 2017

...
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Old January 26th, 2015, 09:03 AM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
From Rail Journal:...

it is "unlikely" any trains will enter service in 2017
Indeed. EMU, double deck, 200 km/h, and dual voltage AC/DC is a combination
that is not yet offered and will require several technical innovations. It is said
that a pool of more than 100 engineers is being assembled in Brugge to work
on the new design.

Personally, I have questions about this choice. Most of the belgian network
is still powered at 3 kV and limited to 160 km/h. Plans to increase the speed
above that only concerns the line from Brussels to Oostend. Plans to convert
the OHL from 3 kV= to 25 kV~ only concern the line from Namur to
Luxemburg. Would it not have been vastly cheaper to build a big pool of
rolling stock only foreseen for 160 km/h and 3 kV=, and have a limited
specialized pool for the 25 kV~ and 200 km/h lines ?
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Old January 26th, 2015, 01:55 PM   #531
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A double deck 200 km/h AC EMU has been done before. Adding DC support to an AC system isn't difficult at all. You just need to design the DC intermediate circuit to work on the voltage range the 3 kV overhead wire can have (somewhere between 2.4kV and 3.6kV with some additional safety margin) or add an extra up/down-chopper to solve that.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #532
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Which model are you tinking about ? Omneo, Twindexx ? None of them reach the seating
density that SNCB wants. Think about a rake of 4 or 6 powered SNCB M6 cars with a
driving post at each end. That's what they're after. If it was so easy, Bombardier would
not be assembling such a think-thank, and would just have proposed an existing model.

Just to give an order of magnitude: the seating capacity of an 8-car twindexx is advertised
at 625 people for 200m length. A 6-car rake of SNCB M6 type (Bx-B-A-BD-B-Bx)
would be 136+140+124+103+140+136=779 seats in 160m.

Personally I would have been perfectly happy to use twindexx. But most stations
platforms in Belgium are limited to 12 cars and an effort is made to increase the
number of passengers that can be transported with that train's length because the
network does not allow a higher number of trains - there are too much of them already.

Of course this means that we will end up with a specific design, not an off the shelf
product. And therefore will have to debug the train from end to end. You might argue,
however, that our last attempts with off-the-shelf rolling stock were not that
convinvcing.

Last edited by MarcVD; January 26th, 2015 at 04:06 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 07:39 PM   #533
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The OMNEO train platform offers an immense amount of seating capacity, but it depends a lot on the interior configuration of the train. In the "OMNEO Premium" configuration, a 110 metre train can offer a seat to 485 people. According to the brochure, a 135 metre* OMNEO 'standard' train offers a seating capacity of:
- 650 to 670** seats in 2+2 layout
- 760 to 780** seats in 2+3 layout

* Length between couplers
** Depending on intermediate coach length

An M6 coach measures 26,80 metres in length, meaning that a train formed of 6 coaches would accrue a total of 160 metres in train length. In length this is comparable to two "Short" OMNEOs (see brochure), which would provide about 750 seats in 2+2 layout. This compares quite well against the M6 rake, taking into account that there would be two cabs halfway through the OMNEO. If those would be replaced by a normal coach, the seating capacity of the OMNEO would go beyond that of the M6 composition.

All in all, I think the OMNEO has a pretty good chance of becoming Belgium's new intercity train.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 01:47 AM   #534
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The RFP issued by SNCB specified a minimal seat density (number of seats
per meter of train) so we'll compare on that basis.

M6 rake : 779 seats / 160 m = 4.8 seats/m
Omneo : 530 seats / 110 m = 4.8 seats/m too.

But if you want 200 km/h then you have to take the V200 Intercity version
which is 485 seats / 110 m = 4.4 seats/m only, so 10% less

I could not find back the text of the RFI issued by SNCB, but I found back
some notes I took at that time, and it specifies a seat density of 4,3 seats/m.
So the V200 omneo fits indeed with the RFI, at least for that criteria.

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Old January 27th, 2015, 02:10 AM   #535
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I think it will be possible to build a V200 OMNEO with a higher seat density, but that Bombardier has just simply not designed it as such. It's uncommon for commuter trains (the OMNEO's primary market) to reach top speeds over 160 km/h, so making an interior layout for a V200 intercity train with the seat layout of a commuter train does not make sense for Bombardier from a commercial point of view.

In the pictures attached to Bombardier's press release, it can be seen that they included space for luggage racks. I'm guessing they also counted with an increased seat pitch, which might be bigger than the pitch in the M6 fleet. By removing the racks and reducing the seat pitch a bit, it should be possible to get close to that 4.8 seats/m.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 02:57 AM   #536
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Yes indeed, but even that is not needed, the seat density of the V200
omneo is 4,4 while SNCB specified a minimum of 4,3. So the published
diagram fits as it is !

There would be other problems, though. SNCB required that the new stock
would be compatible with the existing M6 stock. They did however not say
what they meant by "compatible". And it might be considered by regulatory
authorities as a way to give a specific advantage to the Brugge Bombardier
factory...

At the time the RFI was issued, the architecture that was most discussed was
a 5-car M6 rake powered by a "loco" similar to the Dutch mDDM, with a Traxx
equipment on the lower floor and 70 passengers on the upper floor. This
fits the seat density requirement as well...
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Old January 27th, 2015, 09:52 AM   #537
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Now that the Alstom-Bombardier-consortium is the only remaining contender, compatabiliy with M6 is not really an issue anymore as that is an Alstom-Bombardier built train as well. If Siemens would have replied to the RFI, things might have been different if no information was provided about how M6-compatability should be provided.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 01:58 PM   #538
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Always watch out with the passenger numbers as quoted by a manufacturer, as they are for a certain reference design, usually the first customer.
Removal of bar sections, less toilets, a slightly smaller seat pitch, less first and more second class seats will do the rest.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 06:27 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Always watch out with the passenger numbers as quoted by a manufacturer, as they are for a certain reference design, usually the first customer.
Removal of bar sections, less toilets, a slightly smaller seat pitch, less first and more second class seats will do the rest.
Indeed, for the Bombardier Omneo platform I've had a look at it and if you don't count folding seats a 110m intercity train will have around 400 seat with a 875mm 2nd class seat pitch. The 475 seat count includes 4 folding seats at every door plus other folding seats.

Besides the Omneo platform the Alstom Corodia Duplex (SJ X40) is also a possibilty.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 10:45 AM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandaje View Post
Indeed, for the Bombardier Omneo platform I've had a look at it and if you don't count folding seats a 110m intercity train will have around 400 seat with a 875mm 2nd class seat pitch. The 475 seat count includes 4 folding seats at every door plus other folding seats.

Besides the Omneo platform the Alstom Corodia Duplex (SJ X40) is also a possibilty.
Coradia Duplex is quoted at 690 seats for a 6-car, 160m configuration. That's a bit low, but still enough (4,31 seats/m). But that's with 2nd class seating
only. And I don't think they have a 200 km/h version.

Brochure : http://www.alstom.com/Global/Germany...in-English.pdf
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