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Old June 7th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #681
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Then there is the solution to continue the line 25N on the motorway divider further North. Not sure how that would reconnect to the existing network south of Antwerp, though...
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Old June 7th, 2017, 07:52 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by bench_mark_2 View Post
It is also important that Brussels particularly is well connected to the European high speed network because of its central location.
And this is the real reason why the Belgians don't see a reason in upgrading the Brussel-Antwerpen lines beyond some capacity improvements. The 3 h isochrone around Brussel covers most of the Netherlands already and there is nothing further north but the sea. The travel time between Amsterdam and London is not their concern.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 09:20 AM   #683
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And this is the real reason why the Belgians don't see a reason in upgrading the Brussel-Antwerpen lines beyond some capacity improvements. The 3 h isochrone around Brussel covers most of the Netherlands already and there is nothing further north but the sea. The travel time between Amsterdam and London is not their concern.
It is everyone's concern to have modern and environmentally frinedly public transport. The future of the travel within Western Europe is the high speed rail which has many advatages over the other modes of transport. Does anyone use planes between Amsterdam and Brussles any more? Or between Brussels and Paris? Not to mention Madrid-Barcelona and Rome-Milan routes.

I am sure that if Eurostar was a bit cheaper and faster the sitatuation would be the same for London-Paris and London-Brussels.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:43 AM   #684
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Excellent points that testify to a superb vision.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 11:17 AM   #685
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Flights between Brussels and Amsterdam still exist, as a feeder line for KLM's long-haul network. It's a bit strange, because their twin Air France uses Thalys from Brussels south for that. They don't fly between BRU and CDG anymore.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 01:44 AM   #686
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Then there is the solution to continue the line 25N on the motorway divider further North. Not sure how that would reconnect to the existing network south of Antwerp, though...
One of the ironies here is that the northern part of the e19 motorway was built on the route of a former railway. Have a look on openrailwaymap.org
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Old June 9th, 2017, 01:49 AM   #687
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It's probbly going to be closed. Almost no trains stop there and no-one ever takes a train there. It's famous with train spotters because on rush hours you can watch over 90trains an hour pass by the little station.
I used to take the train there every day when I was in high school...
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Old June 9th, 2017, 02:53 AM   #688
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The reasons flights BRU-AMS still operate is that Thalys has only been beefed up to its current frequency and low travel time in the relatively recent past. In 2009, AFAIK, there were just 7 Thalys trains and the trip was slow.

Now, Thalys is often packed.

---------------------------------------------------

What is the backstory or context of the 25 kV electrification of the line (and branches) between Liège and Luxembourg, and the line between Luxembourg and Dinant?
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:10 AM   #689
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Not sure I understand your question. These two lines were electrified in 25 kV because a 3 kV one would have been too expensive and difficult to realize, as there are not enough Power lines available in this sparsely populated area to feed the many 3 kV substations that would have been required. Also, at that moment multivoltage locos became less expensive. All of that made the 25kV a quite convincing proposition.

Note that Namur Luxembourg is being switched to 25 kV too. First step will be with Arlon Luxembourg this summer.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:14 AM   #690
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Not sure I understand your question. These two lines were electrified in 25 kV because a 3 kV one would have been too expensive and difficult to realize, as there are not enough Power lines available in this sparsely populated area to feed the many 3 kV substations that would have been required. Also, at that moment multivoltage locos became less expensive. All of that made the 25kV a quite convincing proposition.

Note that Namur Luxembourg is being switched to 25 kV too. First step will be with Arlon Luxembourg this summer.
I meant to ask the story behind it... Were these diesel lines electrified as such later in 20th Century, or were they electrified contemporaneously to the rest of the network, already at 25kV AC
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:16 AM   #691
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One of the ironies here is that the northern part of the e19 motorway was built on the route of a former railway. Have a look on openrailwaymap.org
Yes. You can still see the bridges where this old line connected to the existing line 25 north of Mechelen. They have been re-used for the connection between lines 27 and 53. The line went to Antwerpen Zuid whose building has since been razed and transformed into a parking lot.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:20 AM   #692
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They were among the latest lines in Belgium to be electrified. Around year 2000. I think the only line that was electrified later was Herentals to Mol.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 08:04 PM   #693
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It's a bit strange, because their twin Air France uses Thalys from Brussels south for that. They don't fly between BRU and CDG anymore.
Air France does not use Thalys, they use the TGV trains. (Thalys does not stop at CDG airport.)

Regarding KLM, from Antwerpen they do use (Thalys) trains as a feeder to AMS. I wonder if the 30 minutes duration of the train trip between Brussels and Antwerpen (and the fact that it is not "high speed") is the reason why they do not include Brussels to AMS as well. (Or maybe they do and I just have not seen it yet...)
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Old June 12th, 2017, 12:47 AM   #694
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I have seen it during several booking procedures :-)
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Old June 12th, 2017, 04:16 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by kbbcn View Post
Air France does not use Thalys, they use the TGV trains. (Thalys does not stop at CDG airport.)

Regarding KLM, from Antwerpen they do use (Thalys) trains as a feeder to AMS. I wonder if the 30 minutes duration of the train trip between Brussels and Antwerpen (and the fact that it is not "high speed") is the reason why they do not include Brussels to AMS as well. (Or maybe they do and I just have not seen it yet...)


The trip between Brussels and Amsterdam takes considerably longer than the one between Brussels and Paris. So that is a reason to fly between the two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
And this is the real reason why the Belgians don't see a reason in upgrading the Brussel-Antwerpen lines beyond some capacity improvements. The 3 h isochrone around Brussel covers most of the Netherlands already and there is nothing further north but the sea. The travel time between Amsterdam and London is not their concern.

The Belgian government likely does not think beyond their own nose. For the ones on a lazy long trip for a whole weekend three hours is sufficient. It would be a game-changer when this goal is being tightened to one hour for the entrance gate to the seven million people living in the Dutch Randstad: Rotterdam! When this market can be reached in such a short time commuter patterns of the elite, and eventually the lower folks, will change enormously. Why living in the crime den of the refusing-to-speak-Dutch ones when you can live in the prosperity of your own homeland in the tranquil neighbourhood of Hillegersberg on just one hour instead?


The idea of borders cannot shatter with three-hour connections between each other's most important regions, but it can when they are more easily commutable.


Look from the other perspective: why do Malaysia and Singapore build an HST in each other's countries? Well clearly not because there 'only' live five million people in the latter. Like the Randstad, Singapore is a hub of trade AND it is a terminus for the many (and still less than the Randstad). By the reasoning of many nagging Europeans a slow line would be enough, causing millions of people to occupy the busy airspace and motorways. The positive mentality in the orient is why these markets will once take over our old-fashioned economies where greediness of short-term money seems to be more important than long-term prosperity.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 10:34 PM   #696
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The trip between Brussels and Amsterdam takes considerably longer than the one between Brussels and Paris. So that is a reason to fly between the two.
Train is faster than flying. That would be a reason to take the train...

Quote:
The Belgian government likely does not think beyond their own nose.
The Belgian government, just like any other government does not have unlimited resources...

Quote:
For the ones on a lazy long trip for a whole weekend three hours is sufficient. It would be a game-changer when this goal is being tightened to one hour for the entrance gate to the seven million people living in the Dutch Randstad: Rotterdam! When this market can be reached in such a short time commuter patterns of the elite, and eventually the lower folks, will change enormously. Why living in the crime den of the refusing-to-speak-Dutch ones when you can live in the prosperity of your own homeland in the tranquil neighbourhood of Hillegersberg on just one hour instead?
Let the inhabitants of Hilligersberg pay then...

Why would brining Brussels within commuting distance of the Randstad be such a good thing that it's worth spending billions on it? BIllions that in stead could be spend at improving the infrastructure of the Randstad itself?




Quote:
Look from the other perspective: why do Malaysia and Singapore build an HST in each other's countries? Well clearly not because there 'only' live five million people in the latter. Like the Randstad, Singapore is a hub of trade AND it is a terminus for the many (and still less than the Randstad). By the reasoning of many nagging Europeans a slow line would be enough, causing millions of people to occupy the busy airspace and motorways. The positive mentality in the orient is why these markets will once take over our old-fashioned economies where greediness of short-term money seems to be more important than long-term prosperity.
At the moment Malaysia and Singapore are actually making train travel between their countries harder, not easier....
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Old June 12th, 2017, 11:35 PM   #697
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Why would brining Brussels within commuting distance of the Randstad be such a good thing that it's worth spending billions on it? BIllions that in stead could be spend at improving the infrastructure of the Randstad itself?
I never understood the concept of HSR proposed for commuting between metro areas. It's 1 h of travel, which is not a little commute to begin with, just to reach the station. And then what? 20-30' more on each side to reach the destination?

Not to mention the cost...
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Old November 6th, 2017, 04:03 PM   #698
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Central Station Antwerp by VISITFLANDERS, on Flickr



Once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
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Last edited by Thermo; November 12th, 2017 at 11:43 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #699
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Once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
Cant imagine someone not being in love with such a magnificent train station!
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Old November 6th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by The Polman View Post
The trip between Brussels and Amsterdam takes considerably longer than the one between Brussels and Paris. So that is a reason to fly between the two.





The Belgian government likely does not think beyond their own nose. For the ones on a lazy long trip for a whole weekend three hours is sufficient. It would be a game-changer when this goal is being tightened to one hour for the entrance gate to the seven million people living in the Dutch Randstad: Rotterdam! When this market can be reached in such a short time commuter patterns of the elite, and eventually the lower folks, will change enormously. Why living in the crime den of the refusing-to-speak-Dutch ones when you can live in the prosperity of your own homeland in the tranquil neighbourhood of Hillegersberg on just one hour instead?


The idea of borders cannot shatter with three-hour connections between each other's most important regions, but it can when they are more easily commutable.


Look from the other perspective: why do Malaysia and Singapore build an HST in each other's countries? Well clearly not because there 'only' live five million people in the latter. Like the Randstad, Singapore is a hub of trade AND it is a terminus for the many (and still less than the Randstad). By the reasoning of many nagging Europeans a slow line would be enough, causing millions of people to occupy the busy airspace and motorways. The positive mentality in the orient is why these markets will once take over our old-fashioned economies where greediness of short-term money seems to be more important than long-term prosperity.
This is true for Brussels-Paris, lots of people commute daily or weekly between the cities. Mainly because having a Thalys season ticket and living in Brussels is still cheaper than Paris
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