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Old January 28th, 2007, 07:14 AM   #1121
Mr. Fusion
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From CNN.com

Bangkok airport officially unsafe

POSTED: 3:31 p.m. EST, January 27, 2007

BANGKOK, Thailand
(AP) -- Aviation authorities have refused to extend an international safety certificate for Bangkok's new international airport, a senior official said Saturday, dealing another blow to the problem-plagued facility.

With runway and tarmac repairs at Suvarnabhumi airport still under way, the Department of Civil Aviation decided Friday not to renew its interim safety certificate, which expired a day earlier. The airport can, however, continue to operate without the license.

Somchai Sawasdeepon, the airport's general manager, said the airport also has yet to set up a safety committee as required by the International Civil Aviation Organization because authorities are "busy resolving other problems."

The issue will be discussed at the next board meeting, Somchai said, adding that he was confident the certificate will be renewed after the safety committee has been established.

Local newspapers have reported that some foreign pilots raised concerns about safety issues at the Suvarnabhumi, but Somchai said such fears were not voiced at a meeting of airline representatives on Friday.

The International Civil Aviation Organization has made it a requirement for international airports to hold an Aerodrome Certificate -- aimed at standardizing global airport operations. Suvarnabhumi can nonetheless continue to operate without the certificate because it has yet to incorporate that requirement into law.

The airport was enmeshed in one corruption scandal after another during its construction, and since its opening last September problems have surfaced ranging from an inadequate number of toilets to cracks on taxiways leading to the runway. Probes are being carried out into a number of corrupt deals related to the facility.

On Thursday, several incoming flights were diverted to another airport about 200 kilometers (125 miles) away after debris was found on a runway.

The discovery of taxiway cracks, which began appearing about two weeks after the airport opened, was made public last week by lawmakers inspecting the airport.

Cracks at 25 separate locations made it impossible to use 11 out of 51 air bridges for boarding aircraft, causing inconvenience to passengers who had to take buses to and from their planes, Transport Minister Thira Hao-Charoen said Thursday after an inspection visit.

Link: Here!

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Old January 28th, 2007, 10:04 AM   #1122
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Oh no...
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Old January 28th, 2007, 11:08 AM   #1123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fusion View Post
Bangkok airport officially unsafe

[B]<snip>

Link: Here!

I was surprised this was mentioned on CNN. Bangkok needs to get it's ******* shit together.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 08:44 PM   #1124
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Pas:

I hope you do not take my posting of a negative article the wrong way. I think Suvarnabhumi is wonderful, and despite the problems it has now, it will eventually be the proud symbol of Bangkok and Thailand everyone wants it to be.

Pavement can be replaced, more toilets can be installed, and shoddy construction can be rebuilt properly. These are not un-fixable issues.

The Governor of Bangkok should borrow an idea from his counterpart in Chicago and bulldoze the runways at Don Muang in the middle of the night. Re-opening a closed facility would be irresponsible, as Suvarnabhumi was built as a replacement, not competition for the old aerodrome.

I think the main reason we hear all this "doomsday" talk from airlines at Suvarnabhumi is they do not like the higher landing fees and operating costs there, and will look for any excuse to justify moving back to the cheaper D.M.!

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Old January 28th, 2007, 09:05 PM   #1125
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Good point, Mr. Fusion!!!

The problems are amendable. All of these negative publicities are due to the nasty politics.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 02:32 AM   #1126
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Everybody please don't worry everything will be ok... I hope so. I think I'm proud of this airport.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 02:54 AM   #1127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fusion View Post
I hope you do not take my posting of a negative article the wrong way. I think Suvarnabhumi is wonderful, and despite the problems it has now, it will eventually be the proud symbol of Bangkok and Thailand everyone wants it to be.

Pavement can be replaced, more toilets can be installed, and shoddy construction can be rebuilt properly. These are not un-fixable issues.

The Governor of Bangkok should borrow an idea from his counterpart in Chicago and bulldoze the runways at Don Muang in the middle of the night. Re-opening a closed facility would be irresponsible, as Suvarnabhumi was built as a replacement, not competition for the old aerodrome.

I think the main reason we hear all this "doomsday" talk from airlines at Suvarnabhumi is they do not like the higher landing fees and operating costs there, and will look for any excuse to justify moving back to the cheaper D.M.!




Mr Fusion, No no I'm not offended, not at all in fact I encourage all constructive criticisms about this airport in this forum as it keeps us all well informed
also your points taken about the pavement issues and the landing fees.

However I do have problem about a certain local English newspaper constantly bashing this airport and now other foreign media are trying to jump on the bandwagon, taking bits and pieces of info and string together and make a story that sell. It is like a game of chinese whisper.

And what do CNN knows about this airport? have they been following the construction of this projects for very long? I bet they just paraphrase sentences from that media outlet I was referring to.

The political situation in Thailand is that some people are trying their best to discredit the previous regime about irregularities about this projects etc its difficult for foreigners to understand these subtleties, how certain powerful people used the media for political point scoring. Remember it's a certain media mogul that orchrestated protest that brought down the previous govt and endorse the coup!

Anyway the point is I'm not trying to gloss over any of the issues.
The name of this thread itself is somewhat misleading. So I think people who read this thread already have a certain expectation of what they are about to read. So, it's fair to say that I'm trying to keep the discussion in perspective.

BTW I don't know if anyone here, in this forum, bother to read an article I posted in the previous page from a UK engineering magazine which described the method of building airport runway and taxiway and it goes into details about 'quality' management etc.

People seems to think the construction is dodgy, however those people who know say otherwise. I can name the consultants that were involved in this project..

Scott Wilson - a respectable UK project management firm which supervise the construction of the runway and the huge airport hangars.

Norconsult - a respected environmental engineering firm from Norway which was responsible for building the runway

Obayashi - Japanese construction giant

Murphy Jahn / TAMS - respected architectural firms from the US

etc etc

Of course no matter how well planned everything is, and the best in the industry were in charge.. nothing is perfect and we're trying to fix it. just don't like the media blowing things out off proportion and now you can see certain people's reaction to the news headlines.

Last edited by Pas; January 29th, 2007 at 03:09 AM.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 04:22 AM   #1128
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links to Norconsult website
http://www.norconsult.no/

Flyplasser
Norconsult har gjennomført planlegging og prosjektering av små og store flyplasser i Norge og i utlandet.
Spesielt vil vi fremheve Oslo Lufthavn Gardermoen og New Bangkok International Airport hvor vi har hatt ansvaret for rullebaner, taksebaner, vannforsyning, avløp mm.

Våre tjenester omfatter:

Planlegging og prosjektering av flyplassanlegg
Rullebaner, taksebaner og oppstillingsområder
Driftsveger og plasser
Overvannshåndtering
Avisingsanlegg
Fundamentering
Dekkekonstruksjoner
Belysningsanlegg
Kabelføringsanlegg



Airports
Norconsult has carried out numerous large and small airport projects, both domestic and international. Of particular interest are the new Oslo Airport and the new Bangkok International Airport where we are responsible for the runways, aprons and water and waste systems.

Planning and design of airport buildings/facilities
Runways, aprons and holding areas
Service roads and facilities
Surface water control
De-icing facilities
Foundations
Runway pavement construction
Lighting facilities
Cableways


Some of the projects by Scott Wilson (project manager):
http://www.scottwilson.com/Default.aspx?page=158
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Old January 29th, 2007, 06:58 AM   #1129
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runway cracks

from airport authority website

http://www2.airportthai.co.th/faq/main.htm#

Suvarnabhumi Chapter 6
“Cracks” along a runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport


“Cracks” along a runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport “The truth” to be told!
Being an acceptably modern and high standard safety airport is more than being equipped with high technology instruments. The quality of the runway is very important.

Suvarnabhumi International Airport aims to be an aviation hub. It is built to be the biggest international airport but there are suspicions about “Cracks” along a runway.

What is the fact?

In the early stage of the opening of Suvarnabhumi International Airport, there are two runways- the east runway, 60 meters wide and 4,000 meters long, and the west runway, 60 meters wide and 3,700 meters long. These two parallel runways are 2,200 meters apart so the big commercial aircrafts could take off or land on each runway at the same time.



The news about “cracks” along the runways is true but it is not these two runways but the third runway which is planned for future use. Anyway there will be four runways in total for Suvarnabhumi International Airport.

The point is “Why it cracks?” Is it because the construction or the materials used were below standard? To understand this situation, we have to pay attention to Suvarnabhumi International Airport “Runway building techniques”.



The airport designer decided to build it with no pile.

The civil engineers didn’t implement the pile foundation technique on construction of the runways because, in Suvarnabhumi case, the piles won’t prove very much helpful. At the end of the day the soft clay will subside around the piles, causing a swelling runway which will cause some troubles when the aircrafts land.

The engineers and contactors then employed Pre Fabricated Vertical Drain (PVD) technique to improve the soft clay beneath the runways. The PVD process will consolidate the soft clay and improve the cohesive soil. Even there would be a subsidence, say, 2 or 3 centimeters per year, it could not cause any damage to the runways

Technically, the civil engineers buried 10-metered vertical drainage paths every 80 square/centimeters before refilling the surface with load of sand. They then laid the mesh of permeable drainage part all over the place, and preloaded the area by refilling piles of stone (4.5-meter height) in order to excess pore water. The PVD process permitted accelerated consolidation of soft clay by offering a highly permeable drainage path for excess 80 per cent of water. The particular technique can firm up the soil in 11 months, rather than 30 years of natural process, and secured the soil for the runway.

Once the PVD process is completed, the preloading stones are removed from the surface. Then they lay two layers of Cement Treated Base and Asphalt Concrete on both runways.

Speaking of the crack in question, the contractor admitted that the crack was technically on purpose. The answer then leads to the next question: What exactly is that particular crack? It’s all about the construction of the third runway.

The third runway is a part of future expansion, but the Airport of Thailand decided to build it soon after the initial phase is completed with two parallel runways. If not, the construction in later days will cause too much trouble. The sea of dust, for example, will reduce the visibility and cause trouble on landing and taking off the aircrafts.

Additionally, the AOT also built up the tarmac technically called Enabling Work” for the aircrafts to taxi from the third runway to the concourse buildings via the first and second runways.

Like the first two runways, the engineers employed the PVD technique to improve the soil for the third runway and the enabling work of tarmac, and here it leads to the crack in question aside the first and second runways.

The crack was actually caused by the soil improvement, or PVD, process, when the soft clay aside the completed runways was consolidated and subsided. The crack somehow brought worry to public before the contractor revealed that it was a “technical crack” in purpose.

The engineer confirmed that the technical crack in question was part of soil improvement, and it could do no damage to the runway. When the soft clay is completely firmed up, the contractor can quickly fix the crack.

Last edited by Pas; January 29th, 2007 at 07:13 AM.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:06 AM   #1130
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since I cannot explain in Mandarin.. here it is (cut and paste)

Suvarnabhumi chapter 6 苏旺纳蓬机场跑道“裂纹”“真相”揭秘

苏旺纳蓬机场跑道“裂纹”“真相”揭秘!

跻身为公认的现代化高标准安全机场,远胜过配备高技术设施。跑道质量非常重要。

苏旺纳蓬国际机场旨在成为航空枢纽中心,并建设成最大的国际机场,但有人对其某跑道上的“裂纹”却持怀疑态度。

实际情况是怎么回事呢?





苏旺纳蓬国际机场开放初期,共有两条跑道——即宽 60 米 、长 4,000 米 的东跑道和宽 60 米 、长 3,700 米 的西跑道。这两条平行跑道相隔 2,200 米 ,这样大型商用客机就可以同时在两条跑道上起飞。

有关跑道“裂纹”的传言的确属实,但并非这两条跑道,而是计划日后使用的第三条跑道。苏旺纳蓬国际机场共计将有四条跑道。

问题的关键是“为何会出现裂纹”?是否因为施工质量或所采用的材料




不符合标准?要了解这一情况,我们就要关注苏旺纳蓬国际机场的“跑道施工技术”。

机场设计师决定不打桩基直接建设跑道。

土木工程师在跑道施工过程中不打桩基,是因为证实桩基在苏旺纳蓬国际机场并没有太大用处。白天结束时,桩基周围的软质粘土下沉,导致跑道隆起,这会给飞机着陆时带来一些麻烦。






工程师和承包商随后采用预制垂直排水带( PVD )技术来改善跑道下方的软质粘土。 PVD 工序能够加固软质粘土,改善粘性土壤。即使出现下沉情况,



如每年下沉 2 或 3 厘米 ,也不会给跑道带来任何损害。

用沙方装填表面前,土木工程师利用技术手段,每 80 平方厘米埋入 10 米 长的垂直排水通道。随后在整个区域内用渗透性排水部件组成排水网,并装填石碓( 4.5 米 高)预压整个区域,以便排出多余的孔隙水。通过高渗透性排水通道来排出多余的 80% 水分, PVD 工序就能加速压实软质粘土。这项特定技术可在 11 个月内压实土壤,而自然压实则需 30 年,同时还能保证跑道的土壤质量。

一旦完成 PVD 工序,就把预压石头清除出跑道表面



。之后在两条跑道上铺上两层水泥处理基层和沥青混凝土。

谈及人们质疑的裂纹问题,承包商承认裂纹是故意造成的技术因素。这一答案随后引发了另一个问题:这个裂纹到底是什么?这完全与第三条跑道的建设相关。

第三条跑道是日后机场扩建的部分工程,但泰国机场公共有限公司决定两条平行跑道一期工程完工后就马上修建第三条跑道。如果不马上动工,则日后的施工将会产生太多麻烦。例如,施工产生的大量尘土会降



低能见度,给飞机的着陆和起飞带来很多麻烦。

此外, AOT 还修建了技术上称为“使能工程”的停机坪,让飞机可以通过第一条和第二条跑道,从第三条跑道滑行至机场大楼。

与率先修建的两条跑道一样,工程师采用 PVD 技术来改善第三条跑道和停机坪“使能工程”的土壤,而这就导致在第一和第二条跑道边出现所质疑的裂纹。

事实上,裂纹是由于实施土壤改善工作即 PVD 工序后、完工跑道边的软质粘土压实下沉时所产生的现象。承包商没有揭示这是故意造成的“技术性裂纹”前,裂纹确实给公众带来某种程度的疑虑。

工程师确认,所质疑的技术性裂纹属于土壤改善的部分现象,不会对跑道产生任何损害。软质粘土完全压实后,承包商就会立即修补裂纹。

泰国机场公共有限公司确认,苏旺纳蓬国际机场的跑道符合国际民用航空组织的标准。跑道的质量和安全性得以确认,完全适合商用客机的起飞和着陆。
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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:17 AM   #1131
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Suvarnabhumi « Piste d’atterrissage/de décollage fissurée »
« Un fait » à expliquer !



Un aéroport qui prétend être moderne et hautement sécurisé, doit être non seulement prêt au niveau de l’équipement, mais aussi au niveau des pistes d’atterrissage/de décollage.

Pourtant, l’aéroport Suvarnabhumi, censé être un centre aérien, et un des aéroports les plus modernes, possède des pistes d’atterrissage/de décollage fissurées.

Quelle est donc son explication ?
Dès que l’aéroport Suvarnabhumi est nouvellement ouvert, 2 pistes d’atterrissage/de décollage sont exploitables. Celle de l’Est a une longueur de 4 000 mètres et une largeur de 60 mètres. Celle de l’Ouest a une longueur de 3 700 mètres et une largeur de 60 mètres. Les 2 se trouvent à 2 200 mètres l’une de l’autre. Des grands avions peuvent s’en servir en même temps.



Les rumeurs de fissures n’en sont pas moins vraies. Cependant, cela n’est pas arrivé aux pistes en question mais à la 3ème piste prochainement ouverte. La 4ème ne va pas tarder à être utilisable.

Pourquoi « la fissure » ? « La construction et les matériaux » sont-ils non conformes aux standards ? En effet, il faut faire un bilan sur « les techniques de construction des pistes » de l’aéroport Suvarnabhumi.

Les concepteurs des pistes d’atterrissage /de décollage de l’aéroport Suvarnabhumi ont décidé d’en faire construire sans plantation de colonnes. Dans l’avenir, si la terre s’écroule, ce qui est totalement possible, le problème de l’effondrement de la surface des pistes, surtout aux alentours des colonnes, pourra être évité.

Les concepteurs ont choisi d’anticiper « l’effondrement de la terre par sa solidification» avec la technique de « Déshydratation de la terre » ou PVD (Pre Fabicated Vertical Dain). Cette méthode durcit la terre. L’effondrement de la terre sur 2-3 centimètres par an, dans l’avenir, ne rendra pas la surface des pistes irrégulière.



Le principe de cette méthode est qu’il faut planter des fibres PVD sous terre, à environ 10-12 mètres de profondeur, tous les 80 mètres carrés, à la surface de la terre destinée aux pistes et aux aérogares des passagers. Ensuite, il faut la combler avec du sable et la rendre compacte.

En même temps, il y a une jonction des tuyaux, selon un schéma d’arrêtes de poisson, dans l’ensemble de la terre où l’on a inséré du PVD. Aussi y a-t-il un tas de cailloux d’une hauteur de 4,5 mètres comblant cette surface travaillée. Le poids de ces cailloux compresse la terre en dessous et en fait sortir l’eau par les tuyaux. L’eau est pompée par la suite. La terre travaillée diminue de 1,5-1,9 mètres et se compacte en 11 mois. Il va falloir 30 ans pour que la terre se compacte naturellement.

D’après cette technique, l’eau du sous-sol est déshydratée entre 0 et 80%. Au de-là de 80%, cela prendrait trop de temps. A 80%, la terre est assez compacte pour pouvoir résister au poids des avions. Après avoir enlevé le tas de cailloux, la surface des pistes d’atterrissage/de décollage est élaborée et couverte de Traitement à bas de ciment CTB (Cement Treated Base) ou Pavé de béton de qualité PQC (Pavement Quality Concrete). Ensuite, il faut rajouter du ciment à base d’asphalte. La première et la deuxième piste d’atterrissage/ de décollage de l’aéroport Suvarnabhumi sont toutes deux élaborées d’après ces étapes.

A propos de « fissures des pistes », certains des responsables des travaux mentionnent « l’intention de créer des fissures ». Qu’est ce que cette technique ? Et pourquoi les travaux de la 3ème piste ont-ils été lancés ?

La fissure de piste concerne la construction de la 3ème, pas de la 1ère ni de la 2ème. Le projet de nouvelles pistes à construire dans l’avenir doit se préparer dès maintenant. On ne va pas recommencer à zéro parce que la livraison du sable, des cailloux, puis la construction amène des inconvénients. La poussière peut troubler la vision des Capitaines d’avions lors du décollage et de l’atterrissage. La technique PVD est également mise en œuvre durant la construction de cette piste.

Tout cela suscite des rumeurs sur la fissure des pistes d’atterrissage/de décollage.
D’ailleurs, la technique PVD et la voie de circulation entre les pistes peuvent mettre en avant quelques impératifs. En faisant construire la 3ème piste, il faut absolument ajouter des voies de circulation entre la 1ère et la 2ème piste, afin que les avions qui atterrissent ou décollent sur la 3ème piste puissent aller vers l’aérogare des passagers en passant par la 1ère et la 2ème. Les travaux de ces voies sont nommés Enabling Work ou voies coupant les pistes.

En faisant construire la 3ème piste, il faut déshydrater l’eau sous-sol pour rendre compacte la terre comme sous la 1ère et la 2ème. En plus, il faut avoir « une bordure supplémentaire » sur la 1ère et la 2ème piste pour pouvoir faire construire de nouvelles voies de circulation. Cela a été prévu avant même l’histoire de la fissure.

Avec la technique PVD, la terre s’écroule, y compris sous la bordure supplémentaire. Cela entraîne une fissure à la surface de la bordure supplémentaire déjà finie. Cela explique la confusion sur « la fissure des pistes » et « l’intention de créer la fissure ».
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Old January 29th, 2007, 09:45 AM   #1132
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Ahh! Pas, your findings have proven how dirty the politics, media, and other interested parties are. The cracks that the news and media are trying to make a big deal out of are not even on the runway currently in use, but rather on the third one that is planned for the future use.

Thanks for your informative posts. You da man!!!
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Old January 29th, 2007, 10:11 AM   #1133
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I just want a balance argument that's all. True there are cracks in many places and it's good they are closing parts of runway to repair the cracks. It's better to be safe than sorry.

However one ever mentioned about the construction technique in the news, not one newspaper I came across even attempted to explain to the reader. Why? they write newspaper not scientific journals.

Lets examine some of the premises of this airport closure argument so far:

A) airport crack = true they exist, due to construction technique & other factors. all care have been taken to fix the problems.

B) reopening of old Don Muang airport = true they have been talks about this due to :
1) high landing fees at suvarnabhumi 2) congestion problems (Thailand tourist intake increased to record high last year) 3) other factors

C) corruption, dodgy construction = this is debatable. For a large project, theres many fingers to point the blame at. As far as I am aware everyone acted in the most professional manners.
Think about the reputations of those international consultants, architects, engineers etc. If you were one of them wouldn't you want to do the best job so you can to attract future clients??? Those who ever work as designer / architect would know what I'm talkinga bout.
Would you want a black mark on your CV or being blacklisted for future contracts? hell no.

D) close the airport down indefinitely = we dont know the extent of these severity so how can we justify if the airport will be close down.

E) media meddling in Thai politic = this is something some people outside Thailand may not be aware of. It's definitely happening. You have to read between the lines. There's a lot of vested interest going on and perhaps vindication towards the previous government which did not established good relation with the press.

Conclusion: you can not link all these premises together to make a story.

A+B+C does not equal D

I like good arguments when I see one and in all honesty and truth I want everyone to know the full story not covering up the bad things about my country.. it's not about saving face or whatever people maythink.
Thats why I try at length to explain technical things that may shed light on some of the issues. Thanks for your patience and sorry if I offended anyone.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 10:22 AM   #1134
Durbsboi
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thank god this thread was posted the day I arrived here! lol,

If i read before hand I would have been shitting myself.

As I said before brilliant airport, the best Ive been too, so lets hope all these smalls things get fixed up quickly
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Old January 29th, 2007, 10:39 AM   #1135
Bentown
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Anyway

Actually,Everthing in the world has been change, So Anything Happen I always Love SUVANABHUMI AIRPORT
EVERYTHING WILL BE OK
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Old January 29th, 2007, 12:10 PM   #1136
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Love the design, it's a shame there are a few problems. I'm sure they will be rectified soon. I have to agree with the person that mentioned the aerobridges though, it would have been nice to see glass sided ones.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 07:06 PM   #1137
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Thailand to ask airlines to move some flights to old airport

BANGKOK, Jan 29, 2007 (AFP) - Thailand plans to ask airlines to move some of their domestic flights to Bangkok's old airport so that authorities can repair some 100 cracks in runways and taxiways at its gleaming new hub.

The move would complicate travel for many of the millions of passengers who fly through Suvarnabhumi every month, especially international visitors arriving in Bangkok and then taking domestic flights to Thailand's beaches.

"We need to move domestic flights which have no international connections to Don Muang. The move will be voluntary. We won't force the airlines to go back," Transport Minister Thira Haocharoen told reporters.

"This is not a permanent move," he said.

The move is necessary to ease traffic and allow repairs at the three-billion-dollar Suvarnabhumi Airport, which opened four months ago to great fanfare.

Since then, problems have mushroomed at the new airport, ranging from concerns about sexual harassment of flight attendants to the cracks that have appeared on the runways and taxiways.

Experts believe that the cracks were either caused by shoddy construction or by heavy rains late last year that flooded huge tracts of the country.

The airport was built on a drained swamp, and the rains may have left the ground unstable.

Thira said he would bring the proposal for cabinet approval on February 6, and that it would take 45 to 60 days to prepare the old airport to receive flights again.

Thailand's civil aviation authority on Friday decided not to renew an international safety certificate for Suvarnabhumi because of the problems at the airport.

The certificate is not required by law for the airport to operate, meaning it can stay open at least for the moment while the problems are sorted out.
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Old January 31st, 2007, 12:31 AM   #1138
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many people had doubts about this project from the start. it's thailand, what can you expect.
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Old January 31st, 2007, 05:45 AM   #1139
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hmm.. who is this coward?
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Old January 31st, 2007, 05:57 AM   #1140
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Too bad....I feel so sad for a new airport tht having problems.
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