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Old October 21st, 2012, 01:56 AM   #241
xrtn2
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i hope one day we can drive between Porto Alegre to Buenos Aires in one big highway.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:57 PM   #242
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Is it out of a personal interest that you are picking Porto Alegre as a northern terminus? I could understand it if Porte Alegre was a vital access points for routes to Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and the densely populated region around those towns, but I do not think that it is. In fact, I can see a much directer link to Sao Paulo (and accordingly Rio) bypassing the Porto Alegre region.

And arguably, Argentina needs connections to other neighbouring countries much more than to Brazil (to which connections by sea already are plentiful).
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Old October 21st, 2012, 11:13 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Is it out of a personal interest that you are picking Porto Alegre as a northern terminus? I could understand it if Porte Alegre was a vital access points for routes to Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and the densely populated region around those towns, but I do not think that it is. In fact, I can see a much directer link to Sao Paulo (and accordingly Rio) bypassing the Porto Alegre region.

And arguably, Argentina needs connections to other neighbouring countries much more than to Brazil (to which connections by sea already are plentiful).
Sorry i dont understood.

The coast is the region most populated in southern Brazil.

There is one big highway between Porto Alegre-Sao Paulo-Rio.

So its easy you connect Porto Alegre- to Argentina than one between Argentina to Sao Paulo directly.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 12:03 PM   #244
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I was under the impression that the Brazilian motorway network ran only as far as Florianopolis. Either my map was outdated, or the Porto Alegre - Florianopolis connector is at a standard that is just below motorway but good enough for quick movements.

Anyway, the South Coast may have a high population density and may be a very prosperous area, the centre of gravity of Brazil (both in terms of population and economic power) is just further north. So I would still say that a motorway connection between Argentina and Brazil would need to focus on Sao Paulo / Rio as its terminus. Such a motorway would likely indirect serve the South Coast, but it would not be my primary objective. To that end, I would pursue a motorway that rejoins the South Coast Motorway only at Curitiba and which heads South-West from Curitiba into Argentina. A route via Porto Alegre would be a bit too much of a detour, while the area would still be well served via the South Coast Motorway, which branches off from the route into Argentina at Curitiba.

Anyway, from the perspective of developing the Argentine motorway network, it all does not make a very big difference. It is all about an upgrade of RN14, which they are already progressing up to Paso de los Libres, where traffic makes the crossing into Brazil. The main question appears to be how Brazil will improve its road connections between Uruguaiana and the remainder of the country. But that's one for another thread ...
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 04:09 PM   #245
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I'm vague on the geography: where does Uruguay fit into this? ("This," I guess, being your Curitiba-to-Argentina scheme.)

I would have assumed, although I admit I may be mistaken, that a direct route between Sao Paulo* and Buenos Aires would pass close to Punta del Este and Montevideo, then cross the delta as close to Buenos Aires as practicable.

EDIT: Google Maps creates the impression of a much denser freeway network than I expected in Uruguay and extreme southern Brazil....



*xrtn, forgive the lack of the til. :-)
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 07:30 PM   #246
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Don't trust Google Maps in any area outside Europe and North America. They draw any major road as a limited-access highway. Otherwise the roads don't show up until you zoom in a lot.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 07:38 PM   #247
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I was very skeptical about that supposed dense freeway network in the interior of Uruguay....

But still (back to the previous point), wouldn't a road just following the coast from Porto Alegre to Montevideo and so on until you can cross the delta be a reasonable route from Brazil's population centers to Buenos Aires?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 10:08 PM   #248
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All the links between the two countries are in a very well condition and, excepting some stretches, there is not enough traffic that calls an upgrade of the capacity right now. The main problem of the link through Uruguay is the cost of the ferry across the Plata River, that is very high. And for the traffic to/from Argentina outside Bs.As. and Chile there's no meaning to make it through Uruguay. Hence, all the traffic between Argentina and Brazil uses the main crossings between the two countries instead (more precisely Uruguaiana/Paso de los Libres, São Borja/San Tome, Foz do Iguaçu/Puerto Iguazu).
Sure it would be great to have a limited access highway between both countries but it would require a private investor on it. But the lack of demand for such thing, currently, make such project far from feasible.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 10:23 PM   #249
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If you draw a direct line between Sao Paulo or Porto Alegre on the one hand and Buenos Aires on the other hand, it runs pretty far into the interior. So any route following the coast would have the advantage of serving Buenos Aires and Montevideo, but it is a sizeable detour. The size of the detour depends on how far North your point of origin is. From Sao Paulo it's worse than from Porte Alegre.

In an ideal world, a Sao Paulo - Buenos Aires route would run through the West of Uruguay with a crossing into Argentina over the Rio de la Plata. But as the Rio de la Plata at Buenos Aires is over 40 kms wide, it requires a huge investment that does not appear to be forthcoming. So then you end up with a route further to the West (crossing into Argentina at Fray Bentos or Paysandu). But even for such a route, running through the middle of the Uruguyan nowhere, you have to wonder whether the investment might be forthcoming.

There is also a customs angle to routes via Uruguay. Even if you can gain one or two hours with a more direct route, you will need to pass two customs checkpoints rather than one. This could easily eliminate all the gain (and then I'm even assuming that the customs arrangements in place are such that you won't need to pay any levies). In other words, I think that the present routes between Brazil and Argentina will retain the edge over routes via Uruguay. Interest in further upgrading them may be limited, but at least it is on the present routes that upgrades are taking place slowly but surely.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 10:55 PM   #250
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So there's no Schengen-equivalent in Mercosur...? Didn't even think of that.

Well, I did, but I assumed it wouldn't be that a big enough deal to go hundreds of miles out of the way; something like a 1980s border crossing between western-European countries or a U.S.-Canada crossing today. Unless you're a trucker, they're not that onerous, in my experience.

I also assumed, perhaps blatantly wrongly, that a road crossing in the Carmelo/Tigre area would be doable: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...106628&t=m&z=9

If you're starting point is Porto Alegre, surely a coastal route's no longer than going through Uruguaiana?
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 12:00 AM   #251
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As a passenger, crossing borders in this region took little time. But this route is about commercial traffic; the majority of users of a Bs As - Brazil connection will be trucks, tourists being a very distant second. And for trucks the detour, as you suspected, could be worth it.

I'm not familiar locally either, but from the air, the area around Tigre appears marshy and therefore far from ideal for road construction. There is an omen in that you do not see any roads of any substance there with Google Maps. And that probably also is the answer to your question about the quickest route from Porto Alegre. If there was a crossing of the Rio de la Plata very close to Bs As, there probably wouldn't be too much of a difference between the coastal route and the Uruguaiana route. But there isn't. The southernmost bridge is at Fray Bentos, and that makes the coastal route a detour (unless you accept taking a ferry from Colonia del Sacremento, which as was mentioned a few posts back, is not a popular option).
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 09:09 AM   #252
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The southernmost bridges over the Paraná River opened in 1977. They may be the largest bridges in Argentina.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 10:59 AM   #253
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Incidentally, the Paraná River is not at its widest near its mouth, but further upstream. So the Southernmost bridges are not the longest ones. The longest bridge over the Paraná is that at Corientes, so that's pretty far upstream. The longest bridge of Argentina overall is the border crossing into Uruguay over the Uruguay River at Fray Bentos

I appreciate that another bridge may come out as largest if you look at the span of the bridge, but I thought that length was more telling about the rivers themselves and the structures required to cross them.
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Old October 24th, 2012, 06:52 PM   #254
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This sort of thing (from the Danish thread), or the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel, makes me assume that something could be done across the Paraná delta. But I know nothing about engineering....


Quote:
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A new study reveals the construction of the Kattegat link will be significantly cheaper than to upgrade the existing road and rail infrastructure. Additionally, it will offer substantial timesaving towards central and northern Jutland compared to the current connections.

The Kattegat link is, as the name implies, a fixed link across the Kattegat sea strait between Sjælland (Zealand) and Jylland (Jutland). There are several options to construct this link; for example a 40 kilometer bridge, or several shorter bridges via the island of Samsø.

According to the study, the cost of upgrading the existing infrastructure is approximately 91 billion DKK (about € 12.5 billion) while the new link would cost about half that and is user-financed instead of tax-financed (like widenings and upgrades to rail infrastructure).

The study will be used in a feasibility study carried out by the Danish government concerning the Kattegat link.

The Kattegat:
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Old October 24th, 2012, 08:47 PM   #255
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I'm not an engineering specialist either, but if you see the various plans that have been made for a full Rio de la Plata crossing, you would say that much directer Argentina - Uruguay - Brazil routes are a possibility. At least technically: the waters are shallow and I have seen ballpark figures for a full Rio de la Plata crossing as low as USD 1bn, i.e. only a fraction of the Danish crossings.

So it's clearly not for technical / engineering reasons that projects like this are not being pursued in the Mercosur region. It's probably a combination of governments not having enough money to spend, expected user levels and investors not being prepared to invest. Unfortunate as it is, the economies of Argentina and Uruguay are still recovering from the hits that they took around 2001 and foreign investors shy Argentina in particular because of its history of nationalisation and other actions against foreign investors. Repsol was only the latest to find out this year ...
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Old November 1st, 2012, 11:55 PM   #256
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Highways of San Salvador de Jujuy

































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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:43 AM   #257
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:23 PM   #258
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:09 AM   #259
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http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8726/1005356.jpg

There's a serious security flaw in there! I hope it get fixes soon before a bad accident happens.
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Old November 29th, 2012, 08:42 PM   #260
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