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Old October 20th, 2010, 12:33 AM   #381
Petr
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Officially there's planned east branch of the 3rd line, but we have public discussion, if in Warsaw is necessary another metro line, or if the route of the planned 3rd line is effective.
We have extensive tram network, which is gradually modernized and can be expanded. We're also developing SKM our S-bahn.
We need discussion how most effectively spend public money for infrastructure.

Sofia is developing metro, but I wonder, how much money do they spend for trams and S-bahn.

Official map with 3 lines:
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Old October 20th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Is there any plans of building 3rd subway line in Warsaw?
Yes there is. Question is not if but when they will start to construct it ? Hard to say, first we have to finish second line.

Here you have some vision of the 3rd line:



as Petr said Warsaw is also investing in other types of rail transport, which is already developed to much extent, as you can see on the diagram below :

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Old October 20th, 2010, 01:06 AM   #383
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Same network from urbanrail.net
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/war/tram/warszawa-tram.htm
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Old October 20th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #384
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Thanks for updates guys though I do not think any public debate is needed to develop subway system in Warsaw. Trams will never be a full substitute to mass transit subway trains. Smaller or cities alike Warsaw: Vienna, Prague, Bucharest , Sofia all came to the same conclusion even some of them have developed very extensive tram systems.
In my opinion Warsaw is waisting its time for pointless discussions. In the meantime Sofia is signing a contract for designing of 3rd line while just starting work on second. Anyway, good luck Warszawa!
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 11:28 AM   #385
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Trams are not a good substitute for a metro system. Warsaw needs to stop wasting money on the trams and accelerate metro construction.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 12:20 PM   #386
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Commonwealth countries You seem to have tram allergy.
But in the UK they've started noting advantages of modern LRT and tram lines.
I guess, the problem is lack of knowledge of the systems like Metro do Porto or Tvärbanan in Stockholm.
Warsaw can't afford to construct, for example, 5 metro lines in next 20 years. Same money put in a tram network, as in one underground metro line, will give much bigger effect for the passengers.
Warsaw needs some transport spine consisting of 2-3 metro lines, and a few more S-bahn lines, but modern trams will be an excellent supplement.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 02:39 PM   #387
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Petr, I respectfully disagree. Warsaw could have 5 metro lines in 20 years. In the meantime, buses would do as good a job as trams for a fraction of the cost. Warsaw needs the 5 (or more) metro lines anyway, so go ahead and build them. Otherwise, Warsaw will have a mess of multi-mode transport like Vienna, where I'm living for the current academic year, with S-bahn, U-bahn, trams, buses, and a separate airport train. Planning a trip invariably takes longer than the trip. If Vienna had 10 or 12 U-bahn lines, with stations better integrated with the S-bahn lines, there would be no need for these awful trams creating road congestion. I don't want to see Warsaw following Vienna down the wrong tracks.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 03:05 PM   #388
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I've always thought of Vienna as of a model city for Warsaw. I suppose, locals don't have problems with planning of they journeys. I'm not sure about Vienna, but Stockholm and Warsaw have websites, which plan it effectively for you.
The problem is, we can't afford extensive metro network in predictable future. Then we must spend our money thoughtfully. Tram network already exists, and can be upgraded. 90% of our tram network is separated from the traffic.
A few years ago some consulting firm analysed feasibility of metro in Warsaw. It proved, that only 1st, and 2nd line are profitable for potential private owner.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 06:20 PM   #389
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I've been a frequent visitor to Vienna for about twenty years. In my experience, locals know the journeys they use regularly and have difficulty planning anything new, typically making a suboptimal choice. When I lived in Singapore, which has a very simple and easy to understand public transport, with the best online journey planning tools I've seen anywhere, I knew people who figured out each new journey as an adaptation of the most similar journey they already knew. So, my impression is that even for locals, anywhere, complexity of multi-mode transit is not an advantage.

It's easy to believe that only 2 metro lines in Warsaw would be profitable for private operators. How many trams lines are profitable for private operators? I'm willing to bet that, if there are any, they would be even more profitable as bus routes (assuming the same service standards).
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 06:39 PM   #390
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BTW, the reason why the S-bahn made sense for Vienna is because it used the regional tracks that were mostly left over after the war. Even the U-bahn started mostly with existing tracks. Warsaw has a better opportunity for a clean start.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 12:28 AM   #391
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Money are always key factor.
For trams, unlike for buses, we can spend EU funds.
Besides travelling by tram is more comfortable than by bus.
In Warsaw regional tracks also are gradually modernised.
We have 2 operators: regional KM, municipal SKM.

http://www.siskom.waw.pl/kp-kolej-warszawa.htm
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Last edited by Petr; October 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 03:28 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocentX View Post
Construction of fast train connection between Warsaw's Chopin Airport and the city center :




Should be ready at the end of next year.
Who's the "brain" behind the station's name?

"MPL" is not a common abbreviation in the Polish language. Why isn't the station named "Lotnisko", "Lotnisko Okęcie" or "Port Lotniczy", for those striving for accuracy?
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 05:13 PM   #393
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It's temporary name, invented for the purpose of those visualisations.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #394
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New 'Swing' trams :



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Old November 1st, 2010, 02:54 AM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

I've been a frequent visitor to Vienna for about twenty years. In my experience, locals know the journeys they use regularly and have difficulty planning anything new, typically making a suboptimal choice. When I lived in Singapore, which has a very simple and easy to understand public transport, with the best online journey planning tools I've seen anywhere, I knew people who figured out each new journey as an adaptation of the most similar journey they already knew. So, my impression is that even for locals, anywhere, complexity of multi-mode transit is not an advantage.

It's easy to believe that only 2 metro lines in Warsaw would be profitable for private operators. How many trams lines are profitable for private operators? I'm willing to bet that, if there are any, they would be even more profitable as bus routes (assuming the same service standards).
If you don't know the Viennese system well enough, just look it up in the internet. fahrplan.oebb.at or www.anachb.at give you usually very good suggestions within hardly any time.

It would be stupid to destroy the extensive tram network in Vienna, subway is already pretty extensive and even if expanded in the centre, only 1 new line would make sense and maybe some extensions of another one. Subway has a different focus than trams in a multimodal system. They are made for shorter travels or as connector to subway hubs where capacity larger than of busses is needed, ie its a common choice in central parts and for major connections in the periphery especially between subway lines.

I don't know Warsaw, but I think such an intermodal concept is a good way to go for a city which features a well developed tram network already.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 02:17 AM   #396
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14 new trains were ordered for Warsaw Suburban Railway (WKD).

The trains will be delivered by Polish PESA company.

Final design is still not chosen - it will be one of those three presented below:













Warszawska Kolej Dojazdowa (Warsaw Suburban Railway, WKD) is a suburban light rail line in Poland's capital city of Warsaw. The line, together with its two branches, links Warsaw with the municipalities of Michałowice, Pruszków, Brwinów, Podkowa Leśna, Milanówek and Grodzisk Mazowiecki to the south-west of Warsaw.

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Old November 11th, 2010, 08:37 AM   #397
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what's the deal with the rail connection to WAW? How long is the trip from downtown to WAW going to take?
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Old November 11th, 2010, 10:50 AM   #398
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Approximately twenty minutes. It's going to be a part of a regular S-Bahn network, not a dedicated shuttle service. Still, the headway of 15 minutes throughout most of the day does balance not very high commercial speed. If it is indeed 15 minutes, not 6/24 as it sometimes happens with SKM and KM on the same route...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMB View Post
"MPL" is not a common abbreviation in the Polish language.
It is. It expands as "Międzynarodowy Port Lotniczy". The name is no longer in regular use however.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #399
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I am liking the third render down for the new WKD trains.

Those trains look very similar to the S70 and Kinki Sharyo light rail vehicles that operate in the US.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #400
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The advantage of S70 is a possibility to be operated as a single-traction train. Here the idea was only to reduce costs of a otherwise multiple-articulated, longer unit.

I don't know how it is viewed in the States, but in Poland there is a growing idea that a longer vehicle with a single compartment is much safer and less prone to devastation than multiple-traction trainsets. Hence the requirements in Warsaw's metro tender.
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