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Old December 29th, 2014, 04:59 PM   #961
rakcancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post

Line from the West Train Station to Wilanów is the most probable next project at the moment. Local government intiated discussion about BRT instead of tram lines for other directions. But specialists are (fortunately) skeptical about this idea.


I know, I may be against some people here and I know this is mostly about the cost of construction but being big supporter of trams I don't think this line would make that much sens. Wilanow is growing rapidly. Who knows but it may be in 15 years close to a size of next door Ursynow. It is located far from center as Ursynow is. Shouldn't be considered a next metro line instead of building tram line? That line would serve not only Wilanow but Stegny and Lower Mokotow. Also, if there is even no plans to build such a line wouldn't be better like it is in case of Tarchomin, build tram lines connecting Wilanow with existing Metro line in Ursynow or in Sluzew?
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Old December 29th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
I know, I may be against some people here and I know this is mostly about the cost of construction but being big supporter of trams I don't think this line would make that much sens. Wilanow is growing rapidly. Who knows but it may be in 15 years close to a size of next door Ursynow. It is located far from center as Ursynow is. Shouldn't be considered a next metro line instead of building tram line?
Warsaw can't afford constructing more than one metro line at the same time. Many people argue it can't afford constructing M2. Wilanów needs better connection now, not in 15 years.
Quote:
That line would serve not only Wilanow but Stegny and Lower Mokotow. Also, if there is even no plans to build such a line wouldn't be better like it is in case of Tarchomin, build tram lines connecting Wilanow with existing Metro line in Ursynow or in Sluzew?
It's beyond capacity of one metro line to serve all southern districts. M1 is already seriously crowded during rush hours. After opening of the M2, crowds in M1 will be even bigger because of the synergy effect.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 07:11 PM   #963
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Originally Posted by Petr View Post
Warsaw can't afford constructing more than one metro line at the same time. Many people argue it can't afford constructing M2. Wilanów needs better connection now, not in 15 years.
If not now while we get UE money then when? I like to compare Sofia, much poorer and smaller capital city of Bulgaria than Warsaw. They finished first long section of first line at about the same time as Warsaw did its first line. Now they continue extending first line, have already built first section of second line and working on extension of it and working on project of 3rd line! Why in bigger and wealthier Warsaw with money from EU it seems impossible? Is Warsaw metro network going to look like cross, and that is it? And, yes I am aware of developed railway network but it will never serve inner districts of Warsaw as it does to the towns and cities around...It is not the same.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 07:32 PM   #964
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Metro in Warsaw won't serve majority of public transport journeys anyway and other means of transport shouldn't be underinvested because of the construction of the metro. Current phase of the construction in an effect of a still disputed compromise.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 08:58 PM   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post

Metro in Warsaw won't serve majority of public transport journeys anyway.
Why not? What is a problem to project 4 full length metro lines for 2+ million city? Maybe not right away but lets say in 10-15 years? Is this politics involved here or just unbelief it could happen? Because I still don't understand how tram can replace metro in long distance commute. And as you said yourself building tram connection between Wilanow and existing metro stations makes no sense because that metro is up to its full capacity (!) Doesn't that means we need to develop metro network?
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Old December 29th, 2014, 09:38 PM   #966
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BTW this is what I was talking about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrej_LJ View Post
I am very pleased to announce that the project of metro line M3 in Sofia, whose construction should start next year, has undergone noticeable changes. To put it simply, the technical parameters of the line were changed, so that it can reach the criteria of a heavy metro line. 3 of the initially planned 19 stations on the the main line were removed, so now the line has the following technical parameters:

M3 (GORNA BANYA P+R - BOTEVGRADSKO AV. P+R)

* 17 km, 16 stations (12 underground, 4 above ground)
* 2 transfer stations (connection to M1 at Orlov most and to M2 at NDK II)
* 2 metro depots 1) Zemlyane and 2) Vrazhdebna
* Platform length: 100-105 m
* Trains - 3x33m carriages, 99m long trains, powered by a pantograph
* Cost cca. € 700 mil.
* Construction: 2015 - 2018/9 (central section), 2020 the rest of the main line, both branches after 2020.

The following map is providing a more detailed and schematic look on the M3 project:


*map made by Andrej_LJ and JloKyM

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Old December 29th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #967
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It's waste of money to built it and then to maintain it. Especially that it wouldn't cover all districts anyway. Warsaw has 1000 other areas to catch up and limited budget. Many of these areas are already underinvested because of the construction of the metro. In a few big much wealthier German cities like Frankfurt, Stuttgart or Koeln there's no heavy subway at all.
I don't have entire night to discuss it in English.

EDIT
Besides Sofia doesn't have to pay any super tax for other regions, I guess...
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Last edited by Petr; December 29th, 2014 at 10:42 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 11:11 PM   #968
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What has Sofia to do with Warsaw?
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Old December 29th, 2014, 11:39 PM   #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post

It's waste of money to built it and then to maintain it. Especially that it wouldn't cover all districts anyway. Warsaw has 1000 other areas to catch up and limited budget. Many of these areas are already underinvested because of the construction of the metro. In a few big much wealthier German cities like Frankfurt, Stuttgart or Koeln there's no heavy subway at all.
Do not compare Stuttgart or Frankfurt with Warsaw! It´s better to compare them with Kracow and Lodz.

Anyway, there have been plans for 4 metro-lines in Warsaw and I´m pretty sure it´s not the point of maintaining that network. It´s just the matter of money spend for construction. The once planned fourth line should reach Sikierki, later it turned into metro-line to Wilanow. As you said, M1 is heavily used, so there could be a reason for a relieving line one day. A city of about 2 Mill. inhabitants could have 4 metro-lines. Look at Budapest or Prague. That are the right cities to compare with Warsaw (in terms of size, economics). Also I think, tramway-network of Warsaw is already well with the ongoing projects.

Kind regards
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Old December 29th, 2014, 11:55 PM   #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Do not compare Stuttgart or Frankfurt with Warsaw! It´s better to compare them with Kracow and Lodz.

Anyway, there have been plans for 4 metro-lines in Warsaw and I´m pretty sure it´s not the point of maintaining that network. It´s just the matter of money spend for construction. The once planned fourth line should reach Sikierki, later it turned into metro-line to Wilanow. As you said, M1 is heavily used, so there could be a reason for a relieving line one day. A city of about 2 Mill. inhabitants could have 4 metro-lines. Look at Budapest or Prague. That are the right cities to compare with Warsaw (in terms of size, economics). Also I think, tramway-network of Warsaw is already well with the ongoing projects.

Kind regards
I've never been to Stuttgart or Frankfurt but they seem to be much bigger agglomerations than Łódź or Kraków:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larger_urban_zone

I'm not saying that 4 metro lines are bad idea for the next, let's say, 50 years, but what we're disputing about is building 4 metro lines in the next 15-20 years, and building 2 metro lines at the same time. In fact in the next 8 years we will have 11 more stations of the M2. Most optimistic scenario for the next 15 years is 2 and a half metro lines.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 02:17 AM   #971
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Warsaw is pretty spread out so trams & buses have this advantage of being more flexible than metro.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post
I'm not saying that 4 metro lines are bad idea for the next, let's say, 50 years, but what we're disputing about is building 4 metro lines in the next 15-20 years, and building 2 metro lines at the same time. In fact in the next 8 years we will have 11 more stations of the M2. Most optimistic scenario for the next 15 years is 2 and a half metro lines.
Yes, that is real. Basically Warsaw officials and citizens are kind of skeptic about metro, even if it carries much more passengers/km than metro Sofia already. Warsaw has to pay metro-construction by itself, there is no kind of tax or law like in Germany and Italy. I don´t know if EU-founds are generally available for metro and one has to be careful about that.

Still I wonder why Barcelona still should get EU-money for metro-construction, there is no need for that anymore. But Barcelona is a negative example of misleading founds for a too ambitious project (L9/L10) . Maybe it´s better to have a continous metro-construction in Warsaw of, let´s say opening 5 km every 5 years. It´s a foreseeable demand of money and long term investment, but officials have to follow this program, don´t matter which party they are from...

So 15 years for M2 and M3 to Goclaw, than another up to 10 years for completition of M3 to west-railway station. Than another years for construction of basic parts of a line 4. During this time the tram to Tarchomin at some kind of metro-predecessor pays off, and so does probably tram to Wilanow.

Warsaw is far away from beeing a spread city, prefab-block real estates with 10 floors like in Prague, Sofia up to the city-limits. Budapest and all german Stadtbahn-cities are by far not that compact.

Kind regards
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Old December 30th, 2014, 11:09 AM   #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Maybe it´s better to have a continous metro-construction in Warsaw of, let´s say opening 5 km every 5 years. It´s a foreseeable demand of money and long term investment, but officials have to follow this program, don´t matter which party they are from...

So 15 years for M2 and M3 to Goclaw, than another up to 10 years for completition of M3 to west-railway station. Than another years for construction of basic parts of a line 4. During this time the tram to Tarchomin at some kind of metro-predecessor pays off, and so does probably tram to Wilanow.
I can't imagine mayor who dares to stop construction of the metro. So most probable scenario, after Warsaw will have lose EU structural funding, is construction of 2-4 stations (depending on the municipal finances) every 4 years and opening it before the local elections. Before our EU accession after PRL collapse in years 1994-2006 average pace was 2 stations/4 years.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 01:37 PM   #974
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Any updates on an opening date for Warsaw Metro L2?
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Old December 30th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #975
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Pesa Jazz Duo with corrected painting

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1233290.html



earlier painting:
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Old December 31st, 2014, 01:17 PM   #976
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Pesa together with CAF can be the worlds ugliest tram manufacturer!!!!
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Old December 31st, 2014, 01:35 PM   #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Pesa together with CAF can be the worlds ugliest tram manufacturer!!!!
Actually, Pesa can into good design:
http://phototrans.eu/14,720982,0,Pesa_122NbT_301.html
http://phototrans.eu/14,724305,0,Pes...28NG_1051.html
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Old December 31st, 2014, 04:08 PM   #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Pesa together with CAF can be the worlds ugliest tram manufacturer!!!!
PESA can make well design trams. This one is kind of "home improvement" design. If these black lips are removed from front of tram it would look much better.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 04:26 PM   #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chauffeur View Post
That is good too:
http://phototrans.eu/14,705303,0,Pesa_2012N_831.html
especially back imho:
http://phototrans.eu/14,690489,0,Pesa_2012N_824.html
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Old December 31st, 2014, 05:32 PM   #980
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CAF can make nice trams too
http://www.caf.es/upload/productos/1...a_Besancon.jpg
http://www.caf.es/upload/productos/1..._estocolmo.jpg
http://www.caf.es/upload/productos/1[99].jpg
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