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Old November 13th, 2015, 04:08 PM   #1321
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^
since when our population is over 40 milion? or you mean including people living outside country? if so it is probably closer to 60 milion
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Old November 14th, 2015, 11:30 PM   #1322
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For years 2016-2019 is planned worth 350 million zlotys (or 83 million €) modernization of the suburban 22 km long railway line Warszawa Włochy – Grodzisk Mazowiecki.

PLK, owner of the infrastructure, just announced a tender for the constructor. Info only in Polish:

http://kurierkolejowy.eu/aktualnosci...azowiecki.html
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 07:22 PM   #1323
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New workcars for Warsaw tram system: 6 motorcars (for service, repair and maintenance of technical infrastructure, as well as carrying specialized equipment, cargo and crew) and two trailers (one with crane) will be delivered by year-end.
Photos from factory (ZPS Stargard Szczeciński, north-west Poland):
So far, most of Warsaw workcars are based on old, withdrawn tramcars, most notably Type K and 13N:
A bit newer example - Windhoff SF50:
A mobile laboratory (Konstal 105Na-based):
And a tram-based electric "locomotive":
All (and more) pics from: http://web1591.fge1.5hosting.com/lfr-wp1/?p=698
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 10:12 PM   #1324
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Warsaw West Station update:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pstrykacz View Post


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Old November 26th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #1325
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/milo...j.komunikacji/

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Old November 29th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #1326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WB2010 View Post
New tram routes planned in Warsaw:



red - existing routes
green - new routes that should be built before 2023
blue - new routes that should be ready by 2030

source: http://warszawa.wyborcza.pl/warszawa...l#BoxLokWawImg
Why not invest money in so badly needed metro. Trams are fine, but metro is better in any circumstances. Well, expensive, but better and will be repayable quite fast. I'm bored being in the queues to come into trams on Al. Jerozolimskie.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 12:25 AM   #1327
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Originally Posted by ukraroad View Post
Why not invest money in so badly needed metro. Trams are fine, but metro is better in any circumstances. Well, expensive, but better and will be repayable quite fast. I'm bored being in the queues to come into trams on Al. Jerozolimskie.
One form of transport isn't necessarily 'better' than the other.
Trams have pluses as well, for example street level accessibility and being able to look at things out of the window.
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Old December 4th, 2015, 03:54 AM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloganista View Post
One form of transport isn't necessarily 'better' than the other.
Trams have pluses as well, for example street level accessibility and being able to look at things out of the window.
Hahaha, that is so cute.... I am a huge supporter of trams however Metro makes much more sense and beats every other mean of transportation with speed, capacity, accessibility and reliability (not prone to most of weather conditions)... BUT ..... it is a lot more expensive to build....
I think Warsaw has to many plans for developing "long distance"trams. Generally lots of projects are very needed like around West Warsaw Train Station or along planned Krasinski bridge. However some very distant from the center lines are questionable. Does it really make sense to build tram to far Wilanow? It is one of the fastest growing district in Warsaw. It has empty lots for developers all over around and in 10 years there could be 40-50K people living there. Isn't better to take it into consideration and plan metro line instead of tram? That line would serve not only Wilanow but also populous Stegny and lower Mokotow. Similar situation is with north part of Warsaw - Bialoleka. I understand that there was an urgent need to unclog ever jammed Modlinska street and S8 bridge and tram line over the Wisla river was built for that but soon it will become only half solution for that young and rapidly growing district. There should be metro too...
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Old December 4th, 2015, 12:45 PM   #1329
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Hahaha, that is so cute.... I am a huge supporter of trams however Metro makes much more sense and beats every other mean of transportation with speed, capacity, accessibility and reliability (not prone to most of weather conditions)... BUT ..... it is a lot more expensive to build....
If trams are as second-rate as you say they are, why is New York so desperate for a tram line? http://vision42.org/?page_id=38

Quote:
I think Warsaw has to many plans for developing "long distance"trams.
That's like saying fish have too much water to swim in.

Quote:
Generally lots of projects are very needed like around West Warsaw Train Station or along planned Krasinski bridge. However some very distant from the center lines are questionable. Does it really make sense to build tram to far Wilanow? It is one of the fastest growing district in Warsaw. It has empty lots for developers all over around and in 10 years there could be 40-50K people living there.
Gocław and Wilanów desperately need to be linked by tram. Its a scandal that nothing's been done.

Quote:
Isn't better to take it into consideration and plan metro line instead of tram?
No. The metro is not the be-all and end-all solution to Warsaw's transport needs.

Quote:
That line would serve not only Wilanow but also populous Stegny and lower Mokotow. Similar situation is with north part of Warsaw - Bialoleka. I understand that there was an urgent need to unclog ever jammed Modlinska street and S8 bridge and tram line over the Wisla river was built for that but soon it will become only half solution for that young and rapidly growing district. There should be metro too...
Did you know that London deeply regrets liquidating its tram lines in the 1930s and 1940s?

We travel by different means of transport - car, boat, plane, bus. You would like us all to travel by plane only because its 'the best'.
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Old December 4th, 2015, 03:39 PM   #1330
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Oh boy... I don't want to get involve into immature black-white conversation what is better tram or metro. You totally missed my point giving some random examples from history of trams around the world.
Fact: Warsaw among big capital cities in Europe has undeveloped metro system. There is actually one over 1 million capital city without metro in Europe - Belgrade. Till recently it was also Sofia but they started to build their metro system very quickly. First line, second and third in planning. At the same time in Warsaw we had and that is still going on, useless discussion what is better tram or metro.... For the size of city like Warsaw not only by population by also by the area it is NO other CHOICE than reliable metro network which of course should be sealed by dense tram network. Building long tram lines itself that in near future will be not enough to serve population makes simply no sense. Sooner or later it will be replaced by metro line just at higher cost because added cost of tram line.
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Old December 4th, 2015, 05:45 PM   #1331
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I think the tram system and metro system works hand in hand, if integrated well, but a good metro system certainly should in many cases be considered the main trunk of such a system. but still a tram system especially that has its own dedicated right-of-way can do a lot to move a big city efficiently.
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Old December 4th, 2015, 08:31 PM   #1332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Oh boy... I don't want to get involve into immature black-white conversation what is better tram or metro. You totally missed my point giving some random examples from history of trams around the world.
Fact: Warsaw among big capital cities in Europe has undeveloped metro system. There is actually one over 1 million capital city without metro in Europe - Belgrade. Till recently it was also Sofia but they started to build their metro system very quickly. First line, second and third in planning. At the same time in Warsaw we had and that is still going on, useless discussion what is better tram or metro.... For the size of city like Warsaw not only by population by also by the area it is NO other CHOICE than reliable metro network which of course should be sealed by dense tram network. Building long tram lines itself that in near future will be not enough to serve population makes simply no sense. Sooner or later it will be replaced by metro line just at higher cost because added cost of tram line.
In Sofia they opened first metro section in 1998 while in Warsaw in 1995.
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Old December 4th, 2015, 10:20 PM   #1333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post
In Sofia they opened first metro section in 1998 while in Warsaw in 1995.
Quick comparison:
We started construction in 80s.... Now we have 29km of one line, piece of second line and debate how to extend second line and nobody seriously think about 3rd line...
Sofia started construction of metro in second half of 90s.... Now they have 34km, two lines, work on extension of 2nd line and planning of 3rd line... Nobody questions sense of constructing next metro lines... and they have extended tram network too... and bear in mind Sofia is smaller and I guess per capita income over there is much lower too..
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Old December 4th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #1334
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But in the first half of the 90's due to 80"s crisis Poland was poorer than Bulgaria.
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Old December 5th, 2015, 03:18 AM   #1335
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Was it really? The '80 were pretty rough for all communist countries. It's not like only we had this debt problems, although Solidarity didn't really help when it comes to economy since it got us under sanctions because of this mess with the martial law and such. I think we were on the same level more or less but Sofia started in the late '90 when that wasn't the case so there have to be some other explenation.
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Old December 5th, 2015, 03:41 AM   #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Quick comparison:
We started construction in 80s.... Now we have 29km of one line, piece of second line and debate how to extend second line and nobody seriously think about 3rd line...
Sofia started construction of metro in second half of 90s.... Now they have 34km, two lines, work on extension of 2nd line and planning of 3rd line... Nobody questions sense of constructing next metro lines... and they have extended tram network too... and bear in mind Sofia is smaller and I guess per capita income over there is much lower too..
38.6 km
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Old December 5th, 2015, 09:31 AM   #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluminat View Post
Was it really? The '80 were pretty rough for all communist countries. It's not like only we had this debt problems, although Solidarity didn't really help when it comes to economy since it got us under sanctions because of this mess with the martial law and such. I think we were on the same level more or less but Sofia started in the late '90 when that wasn't the case so there have to be some other explenation.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...+30+years+back
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Old December 5th, 2015, 11:20 AM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluminat View Post
Was it really? The '80 were pretty rough for all communist countries. It's not like only we had this debt problems, although Solidarity didn't really help when it comes to economy since it got us under sanctions because of this mess with the martial law and such. I think we were on the same level more or less but Sofia started in the late '90 when that wasn't the case so there have to be some other explenation.
Yes, in early 90's Poland was rather on the same level as Bulgaria, than poorer. But I want to visualize that 25 years ago Warsaw comparing to Sofia was in a different situation than now. Other factor is that in Sofia lives 16,5% (in second and third Plovdiv and Varna 4,5% each) of Bulgarian population and in Warsaw lives 4,5% (in Krakow and Lodz 2% each) of Polish population, so Sofia has completely different position in the state and different access to central founds than Warsaw.
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Last edited by Petr; December 5th, 2015 at 11:32 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2015, 03:11 PM   #1339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post
Yes, in early 90's Poland was rather on the same level as Bulgaria, than poorer. But I want to visualize that 25 years ago Warsaw comparing to Sofia was in a different situation than now. Other factor is that in Sofia lives 16,5% (in second and third Plovdiv and Varna 4,5% each) of Bulgarian population and in Warsaw lives 4,5% (in Krakow and Lodz 2% each) of Polish population, so Sofia has completely different position in the state and different access to central founds than Warsaw.
Petr what are you trying to prove here? That Warsaw is too small or Poland is too big to build efficient metro in that city? Or it maybe doesn't deserve it because other cities don't have it? Look around. Every capital city of our neighbor countries with capital city over 1 milion in population has better metro network. No matter if is poorer or richer than Warsaw, to name it: Berlin, Prague, Kiev, Minsk. Each city started to build their system in different times but before Warsaw stared. That is why I didn't compare them to Warsaw in the first place. Instead I did it with Sofia, because they finished their first line around the same time like we did in Warsaw.
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Old December 5th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #1340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aubergine72 View Post
38.6 km
Thanks for correcting me.
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