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Old August 5th, 2006, 12:02 AM   #21
vicecityguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
I cite the CityPlace mall and the Pike, as evidence of redevelopment failures in Long Beach. I'm interested to see what retail tenants are listed for these projects. I advise you, to venture over to Pine Ave., which is the main downtown corridor. You will need a calculator to count the many vacant storefronts on the block.
Given that residential follows retail... pine had an uphill climb the whole time. Downtown LB had retail without residential... so I am not surprised that the store fronts have been empty. However, now that so many residential projects are coming online... this will have a direct impact to the retail tenants. Just be patient... downtown LB is still going through its growing pains. Plus the promenade projects are all mixed use, so there is already a supply of potential customers along with the projects.

I would advise you to venture over to pine on friday or saturday night and you would need a several calculators to count how many people are patronizing the clubs, restraurants, and entertainment venues.
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Old August 5th, 2006, 12:27 AM   #22
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I like most of those buildings.
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Old August 5th, 2006, 12:31 AM   #23
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Been there done that

I lived on Pine. If you think you can convince me, that placing a Walmart in the downtown core, will make Long Beach a cosmopolitan city that people can be proud of, I'd ask what prescription medication you're taking.
I have been on Pine during the peak hours. Keep in mind, there are 10 -15 good eateries, between Pine Ave. & The Pike, in a city of approx. 500,000 persons. I know many of the owners, and they will agree that Friday & Saturday are their busiest nights. However, many of them will state they can barely survive on a couple of good nights per week. What happens between the Sunday - Thursday period? Without the attraction of more corporations located in the downtown area, the lack of well paying jobs will continue to be a drain on small business trying to survive in the downtown Long Beach area. Remember, according to the last U.S. Census, Long Beach ranks sixth in the nation for people living in poverty.
I've seen the sales pitch, from many developers, that promised pie-in-the-sky results for the community regarding their projects. Cityplace and the Pike are two examples. I have yet to hear about any retail tenant confirmations from any of the other developers. Until that occurs, I believe we should wait & see.
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Old August 5th, 2006, 12:47 AM   #24
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Broadway & Main Towers is super-ultra-mega-uber-hott!!

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Old August 5th, 2006, 12:58 AM   #25
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WTF??? Where did I say that walmart was a good thing???? I am VERY against the walmart in downtown... and Walmart is not on Pine.

Are you reading any of my posts? I agree that Pine has an uphill battle... and yes we will have to wait and see. I also stated that now with NEW residential projects coming on line... this will (IN THE FUTURE) have a postive affect on PINE and sourrounding areas. I will say that I am not on any medication... but I think you might be because your rants are all over the place... again where did I say that Walmart was a good thing?????

Anyway... there are many proposed, planned, and in-construction projects that are all residential. This isn't a bad thing, you're "friends" who are owners of eateries on Pine are pioneers and I applaude them for their efforts... I am confident that it will pay off in the end. This area is just getting started and in the grand scheme of things... it is still in the early stages. I hope you know that I agree with most of what you say I am just confused as to how you put "words in my mouth" and argue something I didn't even say???

I will remind you that you stated that "I believe much of what is being proposed is over speculation.". To whcih i responded with actual projects breaking gound or just about to break ground... thus not speculation but actual DOING. You didn't like that so you responded with "I cite the CityPlace mall and the Pike, as evidence of redevelopment failures in Long Beach." Okay, fine... BUT these projects are not planned or proposed, they are built so I am confused as to how you mention that you "believe much of what is being proposed is over speculation"... you just don't make sense. Lets focus on the proposed, planned, in-progress projects just to make sure we are on the same page!
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Old August 5th, 2006, 04:41 AM   #26
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Old August 5th, 2006, 05:38 AM   #27
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Why not wait until all the permits are pulled, and financing is in place. To my understanding, Pine Avenue's renaissance began almost 15 years ago. More retailers (Bath & Body Works, Crate & Barrel Outlet, Express) have left then stayed. Hence, most people will not shop in downtown Long Beach. Why not ask these prospective developers who they have for tenants? I highly doubt stores like American Eagle, Aldo, Aerostople, etc., will want to share a corridor that links with CityPlace. It doesn't fit their image. The Pike has been open since 2003, and its still underleased. In fact, the developer, DDR, owns two of the anchor tenants (Gameworks & Cinemark Theatre). What does that say? Well, they couldnt get those entities to commit on a lease basis.
I advocated long before, that Long Beach needed to improve its skyline. However, the political will was not there. Instead of having a dynamic mixed-use project to kick start things, the city ended up with CityPlace.
Be realistic. If downtown Long Beach were such a bastion of economic fortitude, retailers and corporations would be breaking down the doors to set up shop. I now live in San Francisco. Believe me, one secondary street over here, in the downtown area, draws more foot traffic on an off-night then Pine Ave. does on a peak evening.

Last edited by jcpardell; August 5th, 2006 at 05:43 AM.
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Old August 6th, 2006, 01:34 AM   #28
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vicecityguy

Here is a link describing what overspeculation in a real estate market can do to a developer's thinking

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/bu...=1&oref=slogin
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Old August 6th, 2006, 06:07 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FROM LOS ANGELES
West Ocean Tower 1 is already sold out, talk about the market booming. It is in its 14th floor I believe, the last time I saw it in the LA Times, it looked great. West Ocean Tower 2 is 20 floors high too, about 220 feet high. It is barely off ground, but catching up quickly with its sister. It is somewhere around half way sold out, but I expec it to be sold out way before it is finished. Completion is scheduled for 2007. Great views of dt and the beach from both.
From what I was told, by one realtor, sales at the second tower have slowed. I believe its more reflective of the market. Tower 1 sold out but many were sold to speculative investors looking to cash in on a hot market.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 09:57 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
Why not wait until all the permits are pulled, and financing is in place. To my understanding, Pine Avenue's renaissance began almost 15 years ago. More retailers (Bath & Body Works, Crate & Barrel Outlet, Express) have left then stayed. Hence, most people will not shop in downtown Long Beach. Why not ask these prospective developers who they have for tenants? I highly doubt stores like American Eagle, Aldo, Aerostople, etc., will want to share a corridor that links with CityPlace. It doesn't fit their image. The Pike has been open since 2003, and its still underleased. In fact, the developer, DDR, owns two of the anchor tenants (Gameworks & Cinemark Theatre). What does that say? Well, they couldnt get those entities to commit on a lease basis.
I advocated long before, that Long Beach needed to improve its skyline. However, the political will was not there. Instead of having a dynamic mixed-use project to kick start things, the city ended up with CityPlace.
Be realistic. If downtown Long Beach were such a bastion of economic fortitude, retailers and corporations would be breaking down the doors to set up shop. I now live in San Francisco. Believe me, one secondary street over here, in the downtown area, draws more foot traffic on an off-night then Pine Ave. does on a peak evening.
Pine ave does have its issues, however you mention that more retailers have left then stayed... however you don't mention the sucess of the NEW Sevilla. With regard to the Pike, the reason it is underleased is due to other issues... it is not due to tenants not wanting to move, it has to do with the tidelands and who they are able to lease to. eventually, it will be leased out 100%. Regardless, the folloiwng projects are getting built so I'm sure it will help Pine attract new retail. Remember, retail follows residential not the otherway around... for the past 15 years not much residential was proposed ... much less built so it is no wounder that pine has been struggling. But downtown is much more than just pine... so we will see... here is a reminder of the projects once again.. this is not speculation but these WILL rise!

Downtown projects
A focus on downtown continues, with several projects on The Promenade under way or set to break ground.

Construction on the Hotel Esterel, formerly the D'Orsay Embassy Suites, is expected to begin in the fall. The long-delayed project at Broadway and The Promenade is expected to yield a 155-room, 6-story hotel by sometime in 2007.

Construction on the 22-story high-rise Edgewater on Ocean residential development, 155 residential condominium units at the southeast corner of Ocean Boulevard and Pine Avenue, is also set to begin in fall and wrap up in 2008.

Completion is expected on both towers of West Ocean, at 400 W. Ocean Blvd., this year. Tower 1 will have 132 units in 29 floors and Tower 2 will have 114 units in 20 floors. Retail space totaling 3,569 square feet will be on the project's street level.

Construction on the Press-Telegram Lofts at 604 Pine Ave. is also expected to begin this year. The adaptive reuse is expected to provide work force housing, plus up to 60 units for tenure-track faculty at Cal State Long Beach.

Lyon Realty's apartment project on the north portion of the block, bounded by The Promenade, 3rd Street and Long Beach Blvd is expected to begin this year, and yield 104 apartments
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Old August 7th, 2006, 06:01 PM   #31
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In most cases, I'll believe it when I see it. You seem to be a strong backer of DDR, which gave Long Beach the Pike. They have used every excuse in the book, including the Tidelands issue. Yet, they have never stated, without the Tidleands rule, what tenants would have been interested in coming into the project. There are retailers at the Pike. So, I ask you where are the limitations? Does DDR want to put a Target at the Pike? If you examine DDR's retail tenants, you will see, in regards to all their projects, they don't have much of a variation in retail tenants. Will retail follow residential? Once again, this will depend on demographics. I stand by my statement, that most retailers, will not acquire space on the promenade, as long as there is a link to CityPlace. It does not fit their image.
Now, as for the in-progress developments, I believe a few will come into fruition. Much of the promenade is under construction. However, the hotel project has had more than five expected groundbreakings, and not a shovel has been lifted. The Edgewater, is being developed by Ratkovich, who has a tendency to back away from projects. As for the others, I have yet to here of confirmed financing for these projects.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 06:20 PM   #32
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Footnote

I've heard that Cafe Sevilla is doing well, on the weekends. Yesterday, I spoke with Mariposa's owner. According to his conversation with Sevilla's owners, they are happy about the weekends. However, the Sun-Thurs. crowds are very light, in comparison to their other restaurants. Hence, the worker lunch crowds. Unless Long Beach, can convince more corporations to move into the downtown area, I don't believe the new residential tenants are going to rescue those restaurants that are struggling on Pine.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 06:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicecityguy
[IMG]
function: Residential (1,300 units)
location: current surface parkinglot north of World Trade Center & Long Beach Hilton
Tower 1 - floors: 55
Tower 2 - floors: 45

completion: 2009 or 2010
developer: Molasky Pacific California LLC

Rendering:

Wonderful projects!!! I'm more impressed with this one.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 10:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
In most cases, I'll believe it when I see it. You seem to be a strong backer of DDR, which gave Long Beach the Pike. They have used every excuse in the book, including the Tidelands issue. Yet, they have never stated, without the Tidleands rule, what tenants would have been interested in coming into the project. There are retailers at the Pike. So, I ask you where are the limitations?
Not sure what exactly the limitations are but here is a portion of an article from the Press Telegram (November 2004):

Project delays and loss of potential retailers at the Pike also are being chalked up to environmental hurdles because of its location in a Tidelands area.
Any use of Tidelands properties must be related to water, or a project that draws visitors to the shoreline. That could include gift shops, restaurants and hotels, according to the State Lands Commission, which regulates the Tidelands. General uses are restricted on the public-trust terrain, such as supermarkets, offices, schools, libraries and residential units.

"There are retailers who have been interested, who would love to go (in The Pike) but do not meet this test," said Fallon, declining to name those retailers. "There have been a couple that have been pretty big."

A T-Mobile store in The Pike, for example, was required to relocate within the center because it did not fit the designated Tidelands usage.

Under the original development plan, not all prospective tenants qualified under the restrictions, so the city negotiated with the Lands Commission to allow non-tidelands uses in five of the parcels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
Does DDR want to put a Target at the Pike? If you examine DDR's retail tenants, you will see, in regards to all their projects, they don't have much of a variation in retail tenants.
Another exerpt from the same Press Telegram article:

For example, Paseo Colorado in Pasadena, also operated by DDR, is "doing really well," Giss said. The difference is that "Paseo Colorado is located in the middle of a land mass, and Rainbow Harbor is at the end of a land mass, so you're drawing from 180 degrees instead of 360 degrees," he said. "You have to get retailers in there that get somebody to drive there." One retailer won't make the difference, either. Centers like the Pike need several working together, Giss said. "You need a package of retailers, and that package has to be a compelling argument for the consumer to go visit that location." The formula is simple: anchor tenants, such as department stores or big-box retailers, are surrounded with specialty retailers that feed off consumers heading to the anchors. The specialty stores create repeat customers, generating more business for the anchors. "The developer down at Rainbow Harbor has to put together a package of retailers that are ? different from one another but also compatible," Giss said. "It really relies on this symbiotic relationship. They have to feed off one another. And if you don't have a full complement of retailers in there, it makes it difficult for the others to pull their oar. You've got to have restaurants, entertainment and retail." Tough times Major retailers do not always like to gamble on an unproven location, according to the analyst. "The problem is that retailers, they want a sure thing," Giss said. "You need to get some more retailers in there, and if you don't do that, you could have the pioneers become the ones with the arrows in their backs."


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
Will retail follow residential? Once again, this will depend on demographics. I stand by my statement, that most retailers, will not acquire space on the promenade, as long as there is a link to CityPlace. It does not fit their image.
True, but as new "market rate" residential projects coming to the downtown area, this has to have some impact to the immediate demographics...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpardell
Now, as for the in-progress developments, I believe a few will come into fruition. Much of the promenade is under construction. However, the hotel project has had more than five expected groundbreakings, and not a shovel has been lifted. The Edgewater, is being developed by Ratkovich, who has a tendency to back away from projects. As for the others, I have yet to here of confirmed financing for these projects.

This Fall.. we will see, my guess is that the Edgewater and the Promenade Hotel will break ground along with the third Promonade residentail project.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 11:17 PM   #35
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Press Telegram is not the most reliable source

neither is Long Beach City Hall. The former Community Development Director, Melanie Fallon, was defending the developer's position. Do you think for a second, she was going to admit their department made a mistake in approving DDR for this project? As the article states, she claims that BIG name tenants wanted to move into the Pike. However, she would not name which ones. Use your common sense. Its quite obvious, there were no tenants. The only one I'm aware of, was Bass Pro Shops. From an inside source, I was told they chose not to open a shop at the Pike because, they felt there wasn't enough of a market. In fact, Laugh Factory signed a lease four years ago. They're still not open.
Yes, Paseo Colorado is owned by DDR. It was not developed by them. Therefore, the tenants were already in place. What's odd, is that DDR has been unable to convince any of the Paseo tenants to open at the Pike. That doesn't bode well for their tenant loyalty. I don't buy the arguement, relating to the cirucumference of the ocean, as it applies to attracting tenants and customers. How then, do you explain the success of Santa Monica's 3rd Street Promenade? In fact, explain to me how the vast majority of communities along the Southern California Coastline, never seem to have difficulty attaining and retaining retail and entertainment tenants. I cite Huntington Beach as a solid example. I suggest you read the Long Beach Business Journal's article, "What Went Wrong With the Pike?" Its offers a better explanation than what the Press Telegram will ever offer.
I understand your optimism. However, there have been many proposals put forth by developers, that have never come to fruition. Until they name their financing sources, its difficult to conclude whether the projects take place. In fact, one dowtown real estate owner, Ensemble Investments, once had owned the development rights to the Edgewater location. They attempted to develop a hotel project. When they couldn't obtain financing, their director suggested the City of Long Beach float a bond in order to obtain the necessary financial increments for financing. That works out great! If the project fails, the city bears the financial risk! Which brings me to this point, if these other developers can't obtain the necessary financing for their projects, do you believe they won't hold out until they can get a subsidy from the city? What do you think redevelopment is all about? The developer wins and the taxpayers get screwed.
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Old August 7th, 2006, 11:56 PM   #36
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Honestly, if the discussion is over attracting retail... I have no issues with you, I just think that you needed to be informed of the tidelands issue. HOWEVER, with regard to development projects (high and mid rise) that is what I am mostly concerned here... I am not a retail expert, I am not an urban planning expert.. I am interested in architecture and high-rise projects.

Not only did i read the LBBJ's article I actually attended the discussion seminar which it was bassed on. They were discussing more on the urban fabric and how the Pike was designed by a sub-urban developer instead of an urban developer... on how it turns it back to the street and how it has forced LB to loose its connection to the "water". I agree with everything in that article, however they did not discuss (in detail) the issues with regard to their limited ability to recruit tenants due to the tidelands restrictions. Yes the PT is not a good source but it is just a source. Like I said, the PIke has lots of issues, but they are not impossible to solve. Once the tidelands issue (which is a valid issue regardless of the source) is settled, I am certain that the Pike will get more retail tenents. I think that getting the Borders book store is a good example of a catalyst that will attract more. Time will tell, but again I don't disagree with you regarding retail... my focus is on structures and architecture. I agree that retail is a challage but there are reasons and it is LB's focus to address those barriers and move on. I just wish they could EXPLODE the Walmart... that would be the first step in the right direction!
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Old August 7th, 2006, 11:58 PM   #37
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so many vibrant colors being used in this tread... wonder if its gona go "question about LA" on us.


i hope for the best for you long beach
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Old August 8th, 2006, 12:11 AM   #38
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Explode the Walmart? I agree. However, you're talking about the largest retailer in the world. They will never go quietly. I to attended the open discussion regarding the Pike. I find it interesting, that DDR elected not to attend. Not a very good corporate citizen if you ask me (given all of the subsidies they received for their lackluster projects). Again, I ask, what relative to the Tidelands issue, has been a barrier for retailers? If this an issue, why haven't those prospective tenants made a public statement relative to this matter? I suspect, as has always been the case with The Pike, there are other issues for the lack of high end retail tenants. If this were the case, the director of Community Development would have provided the public with those tenants names. She was not under any non-disclosure agreement.
I am a big fan of vertical development. Growing up in San Francisco, I have no other choice. However, I've seen where the mistakes have been made. Long Beach did not follow any model. This typifies poor leadership. Rather then craft a long term downtown strategy. The staff at city hall, and its elected leaders, went with the short term plan. For that, I believe Long Beach will not reach the potential that I feel it can maximize.
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Old August 8th, 2006, 02:46 AM   #39
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Wow, really impressive projects!!
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Old August 8th, 2006, 05:08 PM   #40
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For Long Beach, they are impressive projects. However, many who've lived in the city, have seen it all before.
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