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Old June 10th, 2011, 07:11 PM   #621
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Gdansk :



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Old June 13th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #622
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I love this brick wall, hope they build it all the way, and also hope they do it in croatia too

and also that reconstructed tower is horrible
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Old June 15th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #623
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Buildings in Poland always have such (ridiculously) colourful names! Glad to see some works are being undertaken in Gdansk. One of the biggest shocks for me (although this was a long time ago) was the obvious border between the "old" city and the "community city." Just outside of the Main Market and north and south, the shock was pretty big! Neat historical houses then ... major artery or open space and gray boxes!
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:04 PM   #624
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transitions were handled much better in Warsaw, but this grey zone in Gdansk is being filled in now with suitably scaled architectural/urban prose. I think that during communism some zones where once landmark buildings stood were left empty or built over with "temporary" (prowizoryczne) buildings, because they didn't have the money to do something suitable or they wanted to eventually rebuild said landmarks.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:07 PM   #625
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I think overall, too, the biggest thing I noticed about Gdansk (can't speak for it right now as it wasn't on my itinerary in 2011) was that the old centre was not particularly lively or lived in, especially considering the large amount of tourists visiting. Anyways, I hope some of the newer projects fill that 'gap' in between the lived in city and the touristy centre.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #626
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Germany Brunswick Palace was the residence of the Brunswick dukes from 1753 to 8. November 1918. The building burned down in 1830, a second palace was built by Carl Theodor Ottmer, being completed in 1841. This was completely demolished in 1960 at the direction of Brunswick's city council due to the heavy damage it had suffered in air raids during the Second World War. Between 2005 and 2007 only the facade was reconstructed, behind that there is just a huge shoppingmall....




[IMG]http://img.******************/photos/22641343.jpg[/IMG]
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:54 PM   #627
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This is the worst example of reconstruction. Useless, meant to give a "taste for the past", one that no longer exists. Let the mall be a mall, instead of giving it that hideous, faux-antique front attachment.

Places that were irrevocably damaged by things like flood, fire, air bombardment, landslide should be either left as ruins only (no use, no reconstruction) or wiped out altogether.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:02 PM   #628
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In certain circumstances, I really think reconstruction can be very effective. With the Brunswick Palace, the attention and detail in the facade, to me, give the appearance of a more than average job and even though it is a mall, at least there is some visible and tangible link to the past on the spot. Also, I find the landscaping and lack of surface parking a nice touch..
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Old June 15th, 2011, 11:16 PM   #629
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Something quite similar. The Palais Thurn und Taxis in Frankfurt was built from 1731 to 1739 by Robert de Cotte commissioned by the Prince Anselm Franz von Thurn und Taxis. During 1943 and 1944 the palace was badly damaged in several bomb attacks and a good part of the substance, however, was preserved, for example, remains of ceiling paintings and stucco. Although a reconstruction would have been possible, the building was demolished in 1951 for construction of a telecommunications tower block. Reconstruction started in July 2004 and the project was completed in 2009 including one 135m office-tower, a 90m hotel-highrise and a shoppingmall. the palace NOW is a convention center with some office space!


[IMG]http://img.******************/images/Hessen/Frankfurt-am-Main/Palais-Quartier-etwas-krumm-a24589823.jpg[/IMG]by Hans-Friedrich Kubat

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Old June 17th, 2011, 01:52 PM   #630
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The last examples from Germany are controversial, but I still like it. Even though there is lack of authenticity within the context, the details in the fašade are of good quality.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 03:38 PM   #631
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Excuse me? A lot has been achieved in Polish cities since the fall of Communism. Wroclaw is not a German city anymore, stop thinking of it like that. It was rebuilt by Poles. Most old Germans would most likely not recognize it. The modernist elements are completely fine. Most of it fits in quite nicely. A lot of German cities were rebuilt like this too, were they not? So how can you criticize??
What is the problem to recognize "German heritage" in Poland? Of course Wroclaw is Poland as everything in Poland is Poland. - Parts of the Limes in Germany were reconstructed and of course are now considered not only German heritage, but also Roman heritage.
If a building first built in Geman times or from Germans is reconstructed the same way it was (or nearly the same way) this is of course a great Polish archivment, but nevertheless it is still German heritage the same way it is Polish heritage.
Of course Jahrhunderthalle (Hala Stulecia) or Malbork Castle are German heritage, the same way like the Limes in Germany is Roman heritage or imperial buildings in Calcutta are Brithish heritage. This doesn't mean that it belongs to Germany or Germans - of course not. But it is nevertheless German heritage, which belongs to Poland now and Poles made great archivments to preserve it. - Germany brought much evil over its neighbors in the past (and this is and should be remembered), but Germany was also very influential over many centuries in large parts of Eastern Europe - and this influence was not always bad (and of course this doesn't mean that the others had no influence). German burgers had big influence on the development in many cities, the same way like the Jewish minority had - but somehow because of the Nazi-past it is accepted that the Jews had much influence, but if someone speaks of German heritage no one wants to hear it.
If a German would say - "we want wroclaw back" - well I would understand this reaction - but of course Wroclaw is a Polsih city, but also of course this city has also very much German history and still much German heritage. - Or for example the Brick gothic in many parts of Northern Poland - maybe some nations can claim influence on it, but of course the highest percentage of this cultural heritage goes back to German influences. --- By the way - there is also Polish heritage in Ukraine etc. --- And yes - if Malbork castle is renovated it is not wrong if someone says: "Nice that German heritage is preserved" - this does not mean that it belongs or should belong to Germans.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 04:57 PM   #632
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It's rather controversial to ascribe Teutonic Order heritage to Germany though
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Old June 17th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #633
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The question is how do we ascribe heritage. For example, a building in Warsaw designed by a German architect for a Polish client and executed by Poles - is it German? Or a building from pre-war Wroclaw rebuilt by Poles and slightly "polonized" in appearance and executed by Poles - is it Polish. Also, are the architectural styles of pre-war Berlin or Warsaw and Wroclaw really only unique to those cities and ethnic groups or is their architectural language derived from classical Roman and then modified by time, culture, technology and functional needs to produce something more locally inflected. Is Beaux-Arts style used in many cities in pre-war Europe French really or French-inspired? Frankly a lot of buildings in pre-war European cities look similar, the heritage likewise can't always be attributed to any one group, but yes there are exceptions. Every culture borrows from others except landlocked groups that do not exchange ideas or interact with others. I would call Wroclaw like Berlin or Warsaw European more than anything.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 06:43 PM   #634
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It's rather controversial to ascribe Teutonic Order heritage to Germany though
Of course you are somehow right. - But IF you decide to ascribe Teutonic Order heritage to a modern state than this state would be Germany in the first place for sure. - I don't share the opinion that German history only startet in 1871 and the history of Poland or France is 1000 years old - only because Germany was not called "Germany" the time before. Of course sometimes it is shared history.

@Urbanista1 Of course everything is relativ, but I see no problem in saying: There is German heritage in Wroclaw. The "European" thing - well - if you want to be political correct in all directions you should say "World heritage". (I don't think that Spain is closer to us cultural wise than the USA for example) - This is a good opinion, but somehow this way everything gets discretionary.

But better back to the topic. --> There are realy nice revitalizations in Poland. High quality.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coihaique View Post
Of course you are somehow right. - But IF you decide to ascribe Teutonic Order heritage to a modern state than this state would be Germany in the first place for sure. - I don't share the opinion that German history only startet in 1871 and the history of Poland or France is 1000 years old - only because Germany was not called "Germany" the time before. Of course sometimes it is shared history.

@Urbanista1 Of course everything is relativ, but I see no problem in saying: There is German heritage in Wroclaw. The "European" thing - well - if you want to be political correct in all directions you should say "World heritage". (I don't think that Spain is closer to us cultural wise than the USA for example) - This is a good opinion, but somehow this way everything gets discretionary.

But better back to the topic. --> There are realy nice revitalizations in Poland. High quality.
of course the wroclaw heritage is strongly related to the holy roman empire, it's architecture is german in taste and detail, nowadays only few people in poland get touchy about the german roots of the city, the rediscovery of it's german past is even somehow poshy in the modern polish pop culture.

however the thing is very different for the royal prussia, the same way wroclaw passed from the polish to the german influence at the end of the middle ages royal prussia prospered for centuries under the polish lithuanian commonwealth rule, it's german citizens and merchants strongly supported that situation because of the monopoly for the polish overseas trade and in the end for the wide range of freedoms the PLC granted to it's population at that time. during the polish - teutonic order wars entire cities chose to fight on the polish side and i think a good example of the mentality of those times is a statement made by johannes hewel a prominent ethnically german citizen and astronomer from gdansk in which he defined himself as a "civis orbis poloniae". consider that the ethnic criteria became strong and somehow equivalent to a national affiliation only in the era of the XIX nationalism and especially after the kulturkampf policy.

in the royal prussia area i would talk about a strong ethnic german heritage and influence but not about a heritage related to germany as country in the end royal prussia (or the teutonic order state) was never part of the holy roman empire which legacy can be claimed by the modern bundesrepublik
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:40 PM   #636
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very well said
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Old June 21st, 2011, 03:08 AM   #637
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Kielce (Poland) - Old Town square - revitalization :

before:



now :



[IMG]http://oi52.************/optsub.jpg[/IMG]









Gliwice (Poland) - Old Town square revitalization





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Old June 21st, 2011, 10:16 PM   #638
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Poland rocks!
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 07:06 PM   #639
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 07:08 PM   #640
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Quote:
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Poland rocks!
Yes we know Croatia rocks as well

more pic from Poland :

Rzeszˇw



Jarosław

image hosted on flickr






Tarnˇw



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