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Old February 18th, 2011, 05:03 AM   #2061
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You are wrong .
That seems to be a common characteristic in all of that knucklehead's posts.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 05:06 AM   #2062
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It must be added that, in case of HS1, some of those stations were build with duplicate facilities as they were meant for once-planned extended services over HS1 to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds... services that never saw the daylight as Ryanair and Easyjet were coming to the market by time the Chunnel opened.

.
Those services will see the light of day. Ever hear of HS2? It has the support of all three major political parties in the UK but any major project takes a long time to be built there.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 05:07 AM   #2063
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Old February 18th, 2011, 10:41 AM   #2064
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If I am not wrong, the trainsets were resold to Canada.
You are not wrong but you are referring to the sleeper cars (which were never used in Europe), not the normal passenger trains which are still in operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)
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Old February 18th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #2065
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If USA high speed rail is fully build, by that time, how the current airline going to survive?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #2066
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Old February 19th, 2011, 01:04 AM   #2067
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If USA high speed rail is fully build, by that time, how the current airline going to survive?
US is a country of giant proportions, and I'm talking only about lower 48... High-speed rail, even if connecting East and West coasts, will never be a feasible competitor for transcontinental flights (as long as 3.700km in straight line), and not even to connections like Denver-New York. How would stay 11 hours in a train for a flight that takes 2h30?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 05:46 AM   #2068
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Old February 19th, 2011, 06:15 AM   #2069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
US is a country of giant proportions, and I'm talking only about lower 48... High-speed rail, even if connecting East and West coasts, will never be a feasible competitor for transcontinental flights (as long as 3.700km in straight line), and not even to connections like Denver-New York. How would stay 11 hours in a train for a flight that takes 2h30?
If it is an overnight sleeper train, I think a lot of people would rather do that in 11 hours than do the 2.5 hour flight plus a hotel, especially if the sleeper is comparable in price to flight + hotel. Not enough to do away with the airlines of course, but enough to sustain a bit of train activity.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 07:01 AM   #2070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
US is a country of giant proportions, and I'm talking only about lower 48... High-speed rail, even if connecting East and West coasts, will never be a feasible competitor for transcontinental flights (as long as 3.700km in straight line), and not even to connections like Denver-New York. How would stay 11 hours in a train for a flight that takes 2h30?
You conveniently forget that coast to coast network will also serve several cities and metropolitian regions in between unlike a plane which only serves the end points.
A coast to coast network can form when several regional networks grow and ultimately join each other to form a continuous network. This means trains which would otherwise be limited to running on their home region can now serve destinations in the next region or if necessary in those in the region(s) beyond.
A hypothetical Denver-NYC route will also serve Kansas city, St Louis, Indianapolis, Columbus OH, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia metro regions. A train running the whole length will not only serve passenger travelling from NYC to denver but also those travelling between any of the above mentioned cities that lie on the route. In addition to these many trains may only run part of the distance on any section of this route as required by passenger demand.
Also as pointed out by kramerica there could be many passengers who may actually prefer a overnight distance so that they can relax while they reach their destinations refreshed. This is also very efficient for business trips since you are using your otherwise unproductive time for travel.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 07:39 AM   #2071
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Things that are Under Construction...or about to start
New Bedford line
Fall River line (future study will look at Newport restoration)
Wickford JCT
Wachusett / Fitchburg line (future study will look at Greenfield restoration)
Four Corners / Geneva station
South Station expansion
Statewide Detailed Transit / Rail Orientated policy


Proposed MBTA / RIPTA expansions and restorations
Manchester / Nashua / Lowell line
Plaistow / Haverhill line
Portsmouth / Newburyport line
Milford / Forge park line
North - South Railway Tunnel
Cape Cod / Middleborough line
Worcester / Ayer / Lowell line
Manchester / Lawernece line
Woonsocket / Worcester line
New London / Worcester line


MBTA Regional Rail
Location : Eastern Massachusetts , Northern Rhode Island
Daily Ridership : 130,000 (Projected 2030 Daily Ridership : 642,000+)
System size : 368 mi
Stations : 132


Massachusetts

Current system size : 368
added Miles of Intercity Rail : 270
added Miles of Electrified Rail : 102
added Miles of Diesel Rail : 452

Rhode Island

Current system size : 30
added Miles of Electrified Rail : 76
added miles of Diesel Rail : 49

New Hampshire

Current system size : 20
added Miles of Diesel Rail : 150
added miles of Intercity Rail : 74
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:32 PM   #2072
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If USA high speed rail is fully build, by that time, how the current airline going to survive?
If there are no routes left where the airlines are competitive then they'll go out of business. But that won't happen because HSR cannot provide a viable alternative to airlines on all routes. 1000km is around the distance where airlines will keep competitiveness on routes served also by an HSR, but also remember that HSR cannot be built between everywhere, so shorter flights will still win out on the majority of routes. However HSR will be prioritised on the busiest corridors, so in terms of total passenger journeys HSR is likely to win a large percentage of sub-1000km journeys on the routes it does have.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #2073
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You conveniently forget that coast to coast network will also serve several cities and metropolitian regions in between unlike a plane which only serves the end points.
A coast to coast network can form when several regional networks grow and ultimately join each other to form a continuous network. This means trains which would otherwise be limited to running on their home region can now serve destinations in the next region or if necessary in those in the region(s) beyond.
I agree with your reasoning, in principle. However, if you plot major population centers in US, you will see a HUGE gap near and around the Rockies. There are no major centers at feasible distances there but Denver, Salt Lake City and - if you stretch a bit - Las Vegas, Albuquerque and Phoenix. All of that in half the area of Western Europe and with huge distances between them in what will likely be the most challenging terrain to build truly high-speed rail. Seriously, albeit land is cheaper there and most of it belongs to the federal government (BLM), thin of the costs involving construction of a 320km/h railroad from Las Vegas to Denver with a branch/via Salt Lake City!

So I think it the model they are discussing there (different networks focused on Chicago, Northeast area, Texas) is more sensible. You don't need to spend a hell of money just to guarantee continuity of a network that is not a backbone of transportation like freight railways, airports or the Interstate System.

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This is also very efficient for business trips since you are using your otherwise unproductive time for travel.
Most businessmen in jobs paying high enough to afford US$ 2000+ fares a competitive, comfortable (private bathrooms and showers, a decent if small bed, TV, Internet etc) non subsidized overnight service would require are likely not be willing to cramp themselves into a train cabin, but rather spend a night in a real, decent bedroom.

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If it is an overnight sleeper train, I think a lot of people would rather do that in 11 hours than do the 2.5 hour flight plus a hotel, especially if the sleeper is comparable in price to flight + hotel. Not enough to do away with the airlines of course, but enough to sustain a bit of train activity.
Overnight HSR trains would bring a lot of problems. One of the key characteristics of HSR-only systems is that all scheduled maintenance and repair are carried overnight, when the tracks are closed for all traffic. Moreover, a COMFORTABLE sleeper (not a 1970's crappy couchette with bunk beds 60cm wide) takes a lot of space to built. A regular TGV unit will have a weight of 0.9 ton/seat. Imagine how much energy would be required to transport passengers in sleepers that would, for sure, not accommodate more than 10 cabins (some with single, some with double beds) with individual toilets cruise-like. I consider that a cruise cabin (a small, standard one) would be the reference in terms of minimum standards of acceptable comfort. Otherwise, the whole conversation of "travelling overnight makes the train cheaper if you factor a hotel" doesn't make any sense.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #2074
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I agree with your reasoning, in principle. However, if you plot major population centers in US, you will see a HUGE gap near and around the Rockies. There are no major centers at feasible distances there but Denver, Salt Lake City and - if you stretch a bit - Las Vegas, Albuquerque and Phoenix. All of that in half the area of Western Europe and with huge distances between them in what will likely be the most challenging terrain to build truly high-speed rail. Seriously, albeit land is cheaper there and most of it belongs to the federal government (BLM), thin of the costs involving construction of a 320km/h railroad from Las Vegas to Denver with a branch/via Salt Lake City!

So I think it the model they are discussing there (different networks focused on Chicago, Northeast area, Texas) is more sensible. You don't need to spend a hell of money just to guarantee continuity of a network that is not a backbone of transportation like freight railways, airports or the Interstate System.
I think east of Dallas there are a fair no. of metro areas or cities so that if you start building networks from the core hubs like atlanta, DC, NYC, Chicago or orlando some of these line can expand and eventually reach common destinations.
Now west of dallas until maybe albuquerque there is a big gap and then there is phoenix, AZ and Tucson AZ and finally LA region. If HSR networks grow till the edges of this gap (Which I guess coincides with the rockies) then there may be compelling reasons to bridge this gap.
The approach I suggest is that of gradual expansion of the network from selected hubs with a view that in the future it can form a bigger continuous network. Not to start building a coast to coast network from the outset.
And yes once a few successful lines are built and run, more investors will be ready to invest in the expansion of these lines. And yes the public will also be more than willing travel on these trains and will accept the expansion of the HSR lines as a necessary infrastructure investment.
Certainly it took decades of investment and construction to complete the Interstate system. Several interstates also run through the sparsely populated regions in the american west and pacific northwest. Do we know if the govt makes money or loses it by maintaining 4 lane freeways in these regions? What if in the 1950s someone would have obstructed the building of these highways using the same arguments that are being used for HSR?
I think the risks of failure building a coast to coast network of freeways was similar to that of building a continuous network of HSR lines today. Its just that there was greater optimism in the society in general. Today of course there is lesser optimism about anything in general, partly due to misinformation and demagoguery by vested interests who are concerned with furthering their own interests at the cost of the society or country.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #2075
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Overnight HSR trains would bring a lot of problems. One of the key characteristics of HSR-only systems is that all scheduled maintenance and repair are carried overnight, when the tracks are closed for all traffic.
Except of course where they aren't...
There is no reason why a HSL needs to be closed every night. There is no reason why maintenance can't be done one one track only, with a temporary speed restriction on a section of the parallel track.

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Moreover, a COMFORTABLE sleeper (not a 1970's crappy couchette with bunk beds 60cm wide) takes a lot of space to built. A regular TGV unit will have a weight of 0.9 ton/seat. Imagine how much energy would be required to transport passengers in sleepers that would, for sure, not accommodate more than 10 cabins (some with single, some with double beds) with individual toilets cruise-like.
Most conventional sleepers now have only around 10 cabins anyway. The Talgo sleepers even have only 5 cabins per car... Talgo is the place to go to if you want a comfortable sleeper that is light and fast...
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 03:11 AM   #2076
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 03:38 AM   #2077
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There is no reason why a HSL needs to be closed every night. There is no reason why maintenance can't be done one one track only, with a temporary speed restriction on a section of the parallel track.
This is true, but depending on the frequencies/headways on said HSL, this would be detrimental in running a reliable service. Especially for a business traveler, convenience and on-time performance are paramount, as time, rather than money is what is at a premium.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 05:03 AM   #2078
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This is true, but depending on the frequencies/headways on said HSL, this would be detrimental in running a reliable service. Especially for a business traveler, convenience and on-time performance are paramount, as time, rather than money is what is at a premium.
Can we not have the HSR chat in the Railway forum?

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Old February 23rd, 2011, 02:08 PM   #2079
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Especially for a business traveler, convenience and on-time performance are paramount, as time, rather than money is what is at a premium.
....and is precisely the reason why bi-directional running is standard on many HSLs to allow engineering work to take place without closing the route. One track is enough for 2 or 3 trains in each direction - fine for the middle of the night in most circumstances.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 02:20 PM   #2080
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....and is precisely the reason why bi-directional running is standard on many HSLs to allow engineering work to take place without closing the route. One track is enough for 2 or 3 trains in each direction - fine for the middle of the night in most circumstances.
You don't want a crew to perform engineering works while trains pass them 1m away at 270km/h. Not even at 200km/h. The speed reduction needed means long acceleration spans and degraded average speed. It is better to shut down the whole system for 4-5 hours a day so all work can be performed in optimal conditions.
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