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Old April 29th, 2011, 04:57 PM   #2141
NietoDelJaguar
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AMTRAK's P42DC #44 leads Train #29 "The Capitol Limited"
Westbound as it arrives at Harpers Ferry Train Station in West Virgina


image hosted on flickr

Amtrak's Train #29 as it crosses The Potomac River into Harpers Ferry, West Virginia by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr


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AMTRAK Train #29 "The Capitol Limited" as it crosses The Potomac River by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr

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AMTRAK's P42DC #44 leads "The Capitol Limited" Westbound as it arrives at Harpers Ferry Train Station in West Virgina by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr
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Old April 30th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #2142
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 08:49 PM   #2143
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Old June 24th, 2011, 09:38 PM   #2144
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What the US needs is good overnight sleeper trains, which I think could find a market. 30% of Americans, supposedly, refuse to fly. So they drive. If these trains could get 50-70 mph they could do routes such as:
NYC-Washington-Atlanta
NYC-Chicago (21st Century Limited)
Chicago-Detroit-Toronto
NYC-Toronto
NYC-Quebec City
Boston-Halifax
San Francisco-Seattle-Vancouver
etc.

These trains, I imagine, would be double decker, maybe DMU (Talgo's two-passageway layout), and most imporantly, require few changes. Inside my imaginary 10 car train, with a push and pull set up with engine at either end (not DMU)

First Class: Standard Class:


Couchettes: Wide reclining seats:


Restaurant: Bar/Cafe:


Lounge:

image hosted on flickr


Images are to give idea of what it would be like, design would be sleek and modern. Standard and 1st would have ensuite bathrooms, 1st showers as well. On-demand entertainment systems. Checked luggage. Breakfast and dinner included.

Layout:

<CONTROL |1 CLASS|1 CLASS|RESTA.| STAND.| STAND.| STAND.| STAND.| CAFE| SEATS| SEATS| CONTROL>
<<ENGINE |1 CLASS|LOUNGE|GALLEY| STAND.| STAND.| STAND.| STAND.| COUCH.| COUCH.| COUCH.| ENGINE>>

1st class- 4 4-person cabins per car (12 overall, 48 people)
Standard class- 6 4 person cabins per car (48 overall, 192 people)
Couchettes-10 6-person cabins per car (30 overall, 180 people)
Seats 62 per car (124 people)

Total: 544 people max, I'd say on average 450.

Not bad. I'd go on it. I see this being a wild sucess if they could get competitive pricing, which European sleepers do. Amtrak has the right idea, but the journeys are too long. I'd market the idea of combining airfare, a hotel room, and two meals.

A few videos:





Comments?
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Old June 24th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #2145
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Not going to happen. It is pretty much impossible to have the freight railroads, the owners of rail infrastructure needed to run such services, to collaborate with Amtrak to allow 60mph commercial speed service. The railroads wanted $ 410 million only to adjust and allow the operation of a daily train between Jacksonville and New Orleans.

Moreover, as the big railroads streamline operations, they are increasingly focusing on using less tracks more intensively. It is quite a remarkable success for freight, where they haul 80 very large double-stack daily trains in some sections. However, they work in a non-schedule operations, and the infrastructure is optimized for speeds meant for container cargo, around 40mph-50mph.

Many sectors operate in one direction only for long hours.

Finally, the cost of driving in US is far lower than the cost of driving in Europe. Amtrak long-distance trains (EMpire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief) lose, on each passenger, 35-61% of the revenue they collect. Data is available on Amtrak reports.

If there were a lucrative market for night sleeper trains, the private railroads would have already jumped in to catch that market.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #2146
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Not going to happen. It is pretty much impossible to have the freight railroads, the owners of rail infrastructure needed to run such services, to collaborate with Amtrak to allow 60mph commercial speed service. The railroads wanted $ 410 million only to adjust and allow the operation of a daily train between Jacksonville and New Orleans.

Moreover, as the big railroads streamline operations, they are increasingly focusing on using less tracks more intensively. It is quite a remarkable success for freight, where they haul 80 very large double-stack daily trains in some sections. However, they work in a non-schedule operations, and the infrastructure is optimized for speeds meant for container cargo, around 40mph-50mph.

Many sectors operate in one direction only for long hours.

Finally, the cost of driving in US is far lower than the cost of driving in Europe. Amtrak long-distance trains (EMpire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief) lose, on each passenger, 35-61% of the revenue they collect. Data is available on Amtrak reports.

If there were a lucrative market for night sleeper trains, the private railroads would have already jumped in to catch that market.
Private railroads? What private (passenger) railroads? Yet the cargo railroads are spending billions in improving their trackage, to increase speeds and add parallel tracks. Anyways, the cargo railroads are legally required to give precedence to passenger trains.

As for the intensive part, these would be trains going long distances at fast speeds, which shouldn't be a problem.

Driving costs less (for now, at least), yes, but flying in Europe costs less as well, yet these trains survive. What sets them apart from their American counterparts is that they travel distances that can be covered in 10-12 hours rather than the transcontinental Amtrak services. They also happen to arrive on time.

I know TONS of people who refuse to fly, and many more who complain of having to spend money on a plane or hotel on a one night trip, or those who can't justify spending money to fly and drive instead. There certainly is a market for these trains.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 03:43 AM   #2147
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Private railroads? What private (passenger) railroads? Yet the cargo railroads are spending billions in improving their trackage, to increase speeds and add parallel tracks. Anyways, the cargo railroads are legally required to give precedence to passenger trains.
You know, Amtrak owns little trackage. To run a train to Atlanta, unless you are talking about a multi-billion project of a new ROW, you need to get CXS and NS to let you run them.

As for the precedence, I'm not aware that such requirement exists. If it did, 80% of Amtrak's routing and dispatching problems would be solved.

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I know TONS of people who refuse to fly, and many more who complain of having to spend money on a plane or hotel on a one night trip, or those who can't justify spending money to fly and drive instead. There certainly is a market for these trains.
Sure, but you are assuming that everyone who doesn't like to spend money in hotels would be happy about riding a night train that shakes and balances all night long. There is a market, but it is a niche.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 05:51 AM   #2148
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I would love to ride a train hotel, but then I am not holding my breath.

Amtrak is getting new viewliners though. Anyone seen renderings, or are they just clones of the old retro ones? Welcome the US, where trains look the same in 2011 as they did in 1981. At the very least, they could toss the fluted steel and have smooth sides with a paint job like acela.

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I wonder if businessmen with top hats and pipes ride in that car, discussing the exchange rate in Siam and those newfangled motion pictures.

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Old June 25th, 2011, 06:35 AM   #2149
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Amtrak is getting new viewliners though. Anyone seen renderings, or are they just clones of the old retro ones? Welcome the US, where trains look the same in 2011 as they did in 1981. At the very least, they could toss the fluted steel and have smooth sides with a paint job like acela.

I wonder if businessmen with top hats and pipes ride in that car, discussing the exchange rate in Siam and those newfangled motion pictures.
Ironically, that's from a train that runs from Bangkok to Singapore.

I chose it because I liked the lie-flat, single level seats. The ones I conceive could have bunks come from above, but I like it like this.

Our trains look like garbage.

Quote:
As for the precedence, I'm not aware that such requirement exists. If it did, 80% of Amtrak's routing and dispatching problems would be solved.
It's barely enforced, so I am told.

Quote:
Sure, but you are assuming that everyone who doesn't like to spend money in hotels would be happy about riding a night train that shakes and balances all night long. There is a market, but it is a niche.
This, I will admit, is a problem. The old 20th Century Limited from NYC to Chicago solved it by taking a "water-level route" along Lake Erie through Buffalo, which the Lake Shore Limited still follows.

Better driving on a highway all day long regardless.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 08:45 AM   #2150
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Better driving on a highway all day long regardless.
Comparison is inadequate. You can talk about a day-time train that offers realistic competition for medium-distance drives. But the commercial speeds of Amtrak services are usually below 50mph, sometimes lower than 40mph. And you have no connections. And you have to deal with transportation to/from station.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 09:26 AM   #2151
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Comparison is inadequate. You can talk about a day-time train that offers realistic competition for medium-distance drives. But the commercial speeds of Amtrak services are usually below 50mph, sometimes lower than 40mph. And you have no connections. And you have to deal with transportation to/from station.
There an average of 70-80 on most lines , but some areas are 40-50mph...
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Old June 25th, 2011, 11:58 AM   #2152
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NYC - Chicago would be practical as a day train with the latest generation of HSR or better still maglev. If it's good enough for the Japanese...
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Old June 25th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #2153
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Amtrak train crashed in Nevada

(CNN) -- A team of federal investigators has been dispatched to the scene of a truck-train collision east of Reno, Nevada, that killed at least two people, the National Transportation Safety Board said.

The investigators were expected to arrive in Nevada late Friday night, hours after a tractor-trailer slammed into an Amtrak train at a public railroad crossing in the town of Lovelock, the NTSB said.

The truck struck the train, which was on its way to Emeryville, California from Chicago, at 11:20 a.m., Amtrak said in a written statement. The train was carrying 204 passengers and 14 crew members, it said.

"Preliminary reports are that there have been fatalities to passengers, an Amtrak train crew member and the operator of the truck," the Amtrak statement said. "There were numerous others transported to area hospitals for treatment of injuries."

Amtrak spokesman Mark Magliari declined to confirm the number of injuries.
Nevada Highway Patrol Trooper Danny Lopez said at least two people, one on the train and one in the truck, were killed in the accident.

Amateur video taken after the crash showed huge plumes of black smoke billowing from the train as a fire burned. Passengers and crew members stood outside.

Firefighters and law enforcement authorities were on the scene, and buses were being sent to pick up stranded passengers, Lopez said.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #2154
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There an average of 70-80 on most lines , but some areas are 40-50mph...
Not really. The country's best, the Acela, only has an average speed of 70 mph from Boston to Washington, D.C. The fastest and most traveled part of that route - New York to Washington, D.C. - still only manages an average of 81 mph. With very few exceptions, like the Keystone, no Amtrak route averages over 60 mph: routes range 40-55 mph. Trains outside the Northeast Corridor do reach 79 mph - the highest allowed by the FRA for tracks without PTC - and the odd route or two have short stretches up to 110 mph, but long station dwell times, poor acceleration, and (especially) delays ruin the running average.

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NYC - Chicago would be practical as a day train with the latest generation of HSR or better still maglev. If it's good enough for the Japanese...
Assuming the average speed of China's Wuhan-Guangzhou North route (194 mph), it should take no more than 5 hours, depending on alignment - 5 hours assumes 256 miles added to the alignment vs straight-line distance, double the percentage increase the NEC does for distance between Boston and Washington, D.C. Considering that non-stop flights are, at best, 2.5 hours, add in a generous (and generally unlikely) half-hour for both travel to and from the airport to city center plus arriving an hour early for check-in, and you're clocking in at 4.5 hours. Assuming reasonable fares, yeah, HSR would make for a compelling option. Heck, I would take it if for no other reason to skip the ridiculousness of the TSA.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 08:36 PM   #2155
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If US gets a HSR, won't TSA start checks there too?
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Old June 25th, 2011, 08:59 PM   #2156
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Not really. The country's best, the Acela, only has an average speed of 70 mph from Boston to Washington, D.C. The fastest and most traveled part of that route - New York to Washington, D.C. - still only manages an average of 81 mph. With very few exceptions, like the Keystone, no Amtrak route averages over 60 mph: routes range 40-55 mph. Trains outside the Northeast Corridor do reach 79 mph - the highest allowed by the FRA for tracks without PTC - and the odd route or two have short stretches up to 110 mph, but long station dwell times, poor acceleration, and (especially) delays ruin the running average.

Assuming the average speed of China's Wuhan-Guangzhou North route (194 mph), it should take no more than 5 hours, depending on alignment - 5 hours assumes 256 miles added to the alignment vs straight-line distance, double the percentage increase the NEC does for distance between Boston and Washington, D.C. Considering that non-stop flights are, at best, 2.5 hours, add in a generous (and generally unlikely) half-hour for both travel to and from the airport to city center plus arriving an hour early for check-in, and you're clocking in at 4.5 hours. Assuming reasonable fares, yeah, HSR would make for a compelling option. Heck, I would take it if for no other reason to skip the ridiculousness of the TSA.
The Acela Averages 120mph south of Newark,NJ with some exceptions of 60mph near Philly and Metchun. In New England it averages 150mph , except the snail of a pace of 60mph in most of CT due to construction. Improvements by 2020 will raise this to 110mph in CT.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 09:12 PM   #2157
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I still like my idea.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #2158
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If US gets a HSR, won't TSA start checks there too?
They would like to but they may or may not be allowed. Not long ago Amtrak kicked the TSA out of their stations so it's possible that it would take an Executive Order with a wide interpretation of existing law or a mandate from Congress to make the TSA a security provider for rail. Honestly though, I'd have to look into the laws because I just don't have definite knowledge of the subject.

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The Acela Averages 120mph south of Newark,NJ with some exceptions of 60mph near Philly and Metchun. In New England it averages 150mph , except the snail of a pace of 60mph in most of CT due to construction...
There's a slight disconnect in terminology here. Yes, the train does hit the speeds and suffers where you indicated (among others), but that's what constitutes average speed: the highs and the lows over a given time plus stops, the speed the train would run between the ends if it ran non-stop. Certain trips will be faster or slower than others for a given distance - Route 128 to Providence, where the train mostly goes along at 150 mph, is quite zippy while Stamford to New Haven trundles along little faster than Metro-North - but we're talking average system speed. Also, even the amount of track available for high triple-digit speed is in the minority. I think there's only 32 miles worth of 150 mph trackage out of the NEC's 456 miles. There's a fair bit of 100+ mph trackage, but there's quite of lot below, like in Connecticut.
Speeds will go up in the future, like you mentioned, but the average speed can increase substantially without increasing the top speed. For example, train going from Boston to Washington, D.C. have a scheduled stop of 15 minutes in New York; if the train dwelled there no longer than it does at other stations (1-2 minutes), the average speed from end-to-end would go from 70 to 73 mph.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #2159
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Assuming the average speed of China's Wuhan-Guangzhou North route (194 mph), it should take no more than 5 hours, depending on alignment - 5 hours assumes 256 miles added to the alignment vs straight-line distance, double the percentage increase the NEC does for distance between Boston and Washington, D.C. Considering that non-stop flights are, at best, 2.5 hours, add in a generous (and generally unlikely) half-hour for both travel to and from the airport to city center plus arriving an hour early for check-in, and you're clocking in at 4.5 hours. Assuming reasonable fares, yeah, HSR would make for a compelling option. Heck, I would take it if for no other reason to skip the ridiculousness of the TSA.
The as the crow flies route is about 710 miles, so 800 seems reasonable for a pretty direct route via, say, Pittsburgh. Then 4 hours would be a possibility for HSR, sub 3 for maglev.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #2160
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^ Yeah, I would think it could be done in a little less than 4.5 hours, but I assumed 5 hour running because it's close to what I estimated as overall flight time between the two cities and because it also offered a very generous margin to work with in terms of either mileage or stops. Really, it will be less than 256 miles to work with because there will never be a straight route west from New York. Building stuff is expensive and to profit (or minimize loss) for any given mile of infrastructure, one would want the maximum number of patrons using it. In this case, Philadelphia is too great a market to ignore and is close to New York, so all train heading to Chicago will make their way through Philadelphia, ferrying passengers between those cities and picking new ones up, before heading west. Assuming an implausibly straight alignment between New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, we're already short 26 miles, added an extra stop and added several minutes versus the ideal of a straight New York to Pittsburgh run. We still then have 230 miles to play with in order to keep the average speed up, but with each mile taken and every stop added, we get closer and closer to the 5 hour mark. I can't be sure, but I will say with good conscience that up to 5 hours is competitive with flight-related trip times and that's of significant importance when you're deciding to spend those billions of dollars.
This is all in terms of conventional HSR, of course. Money aside, maglev trains with average speeds above 250 mph would make New York to Chicago an uncompetitive market for flying.
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