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Old August 8th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #2581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
Your response is topsy-turvy
By that I mean that it should be regulated appropriately, i.e., less. Probably could have worded it better.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #2582
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And so they should. Rail travel is inherently safer than plane travel, and should be regulated as such.
It isn't. It has around 22 times more accidents per passenger-km and 170 times more accidents per ton-km (in the case of freight railways).

Commercial aviation has become incredibly safe
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Old August 8th, 2013, 05:15 AM   #2583
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multiplied by 2:

Wording deconstruction (quote) "better" is impossible...forever ...
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Old August 8th, 2013, 08:41 AM   #2584
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It has around 22 times more accidents per passenger-km and 170 times more accidents per ton-km (in the case of freight railways).

Commercial aviation has become incredibly safe
Have you accounted for the fact that a plane journey is very likely to be more then 22 times longer then an average train journey? Also the most dangerous part of a flight is the take off and landing, thus a short flight is much riskier.

That freight railways have more accidents is logical: They frequently operate on lesser maintained tracks and frequently on tracks with more unprotected level crossings. Also an accident can be anything from a fender bender to half a village wiped of the map. Do these statistics make that distinction?
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Old August 8th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #2585
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It isn't. It has around 22 times more accidents per passenger-km and 170 times more accidents per ton-km (in the case of freight railways)
Not true, according to this press publication :

http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...urope-railways

This says that fatalities level is 0.1 per billion passenger.km for airlines
and 0.16 per billion passenger.km for railways. So yes airlines are marginally
safer but certainly not 22 times...

If you count in accidents this is may be true, but one must acknowledge the
fact that air accidents often turn out into massacres while railroad accidents
often result in no fatalities at all - even if recent accidents tend to show the opposite.

And comparing air vs. rail for freight makes no sense, given the market they
address and the volumes transported are far too different to allow any kind
of comparison.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #2586
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It isn't. It has around 22 times more accidents per passenger-km and 170 times more accidents per ton-km (in the case of freight railways).
What are the source of your figures?

In Europe the number of fatalities for rail is around 0.2 per Billion Pkm for Rail, and 0.05 for air. That's not a 22 fold difference...

But we should compare like with like.
High speed rail is safer then flying, and conventional rail is safer then driving. So a trip from A to B done by rail will be safer then one that involves driving to the airport and then flying...
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #2587
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High speed rail is safer then flying, and conventional rail is safer then driving. So a trip from A to B done by rail will be safer then one that involves driving to the airport and then flying...
Unfortunately, this is an ideal situation that does not materialize for all
potential high-speed rail journeys. If your travel involves french high-speed
trains, for example, it might wery well happen that it starts or ends in a
station located either in an airport, or in the middle of nowhere, requiring you
to use a car for the first or final leg of the journey.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #2588
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We are talking different issues.

Accident rate as I was writing about is the rate in which some catastrophic incident happens. Then you have the fatality rate, which is self-explanatory.

When they happen, air accidents are much more serious than rail accidents, on average. However, air accidents in commercial aviation are extremely rare in Europe and North America. The survivability of air crashes has also increased.

I agree the fatality rate should be used though. Still, in Europe the difference on fatality rates is on a factor of 4, and I think this ratio in United States is probably a bit higher.

Quote:
High speed rail is safer then flying, and conventional rail is safer then driving. So a trip from A to B done by rail will be safer then one that involves driving to the airport and then flying...
Being a pedestrian near the station or on the way to the airport is more dangerous in terms of fatality per billion passenger-km than driving, flying or driving (in US, majority of victims of car crashes are not car occupants but pedestrians, cyclists, bystanders etc).

Quote:
Have you accounted for the fact that a plane journey is very likely to be more then 22 times longer then an average train journey? Also the most dangerous part of a flight is the take off and landing, thus a short flight is much riskier.
What you wrote is true, but it also applies to other modes of transportation. Aren't station approaches the most risk part of railways, dealing with many switches, dispatch changes, lack of room for sorting out any last-minute issue, presence of passengers on platforms etc?
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Old August 9th, 2013, 08:40 AM   #2589
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Aren't station approaches the most risk part of railways, dealing with many switches, dispatch changes, lack of room for sorting out any last-minute issue,
These issues should and can be covered by a train control system. In the Netherlands for instance the interlocking automatically sets a 2 minute waiting period when a train controller revokes an activated train path that hasn't been used yet. Also the risk of an accident may be higher, but the consequences are usually smaller because of the much lower speeds.

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presence of passengers on platforms etc?
As long as they are ON the platforms that's not a problem. Which seems like an advantage of high platforms to me. Because of the height people watch out better when around the edges. On the other hand, with high platforms you can sit on the edge and have you legs dangle down. Several people have lost their legs because they noticed oncoming trains to late.

Does anybody know if there are statistics about a correlation between platform height and accidents? Because in the US they use high platforms in the north east and low almost everywhere else, they just might excist. In Europe there are also many different heights in use.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #2590
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Still, in Europe the difference on fatality rates is on a factor of 4, and I think this ratio in United States is probably a bit higher.
What are the figures you are using and where are they coming from ? With
the ones I citied earlier (0.10 vs. 0.16 per billion p.k.) the factor is less than
two...
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Old August 9th, 2013, 09:51 AM   #2591
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
As long as they are ON the platforms that's not a problem.
Not in the accident that recently happened in France... Two of the victims
were people waiting for their train on the platform, who have been killed by
the train when it flew off its track.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #2592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
What are the figures you are using and where are they coming from ? With
the ones I citied earlier (0.10 vs. 0.16 per billion p.k.) the factor is less than
two...
One thing to keep in mind is that fatality rates in both air and rail transport are very low, and can vary quite a bit from year to year. I think 2013 is not going to be a good year for rail in Europe for example. We'll probably end up with something like 0.3 per billion pkm.
So it matters also what year your data is from, as the value can be quite different from year to year.

On average air is a bit safer than rail as a whole, but not so much that it really matters.

Last edited by K_; August 9th, 2013 at 12:02 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #2593
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Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Not in the accident that recently happened in France... Two of the victims
were people waiting for their train on the platform, who have been killed by
the train when it flew off its track.
Not wanting to downplay this occurence, I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of platform related injuries and fatalities are the result of either carelessness or suicide attempts.
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Old August 10th, 2013, 08:50 PM   #2594
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4 questions about the new Talgo sets: In every movie clip I've seen yet, these sets were pulled by at least 2 locomotives. Have these sets been operated in push configuration yet? If not, are they going to? Are 2 locomotives required? If so, why do the sets have driving trailers, when they could also have put a locomotive at both ends?
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Old August 10th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #2595
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Not wanting to downplay this occurence, I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of platform related injuries and fatalities are the result of either carelessness or suicide attempts.
Actually the almost all of them are. Except for those reall tragic accidents like the one in Spain, the vast majority of lethalities derive from accidents at rail crossings and suicides.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 11:30 PM   #2596
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Now a third party, the Canadian Transport Agency, has revoked the railway's operating license (eff. 20 Aug) due to their being under-insured. This belated move by the federal operator appears to be pissing off many Quebeckers.
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Last edited by trainrover; August 13th, 2013 at 11:43 PM.
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Old August 14th, 2013, 06:58 AM   #2597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
4 questions about the new Talgo sets: In every movie clip I've seen yet, these sets were pulled by at least 2 locomotives. Have these sets been operated in push configuration yet? If not, are they going to? Are 2 locomotives required? If so, why do the sets have driving trailers, when they could also have put a locomotive at both ends?
The end of the set is moreso to meet the FRA requirements for buff strength and not permitting passengers on the forward cars. There will be only one locomotive that will push/pull the train.
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Old August 14th, 2013, 10:01 AM   #2598
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Has this been brought up on this forum yet?



http://transportationblog.dallasnews...-project.html/
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Old August 14th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #2599
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Has this been brought up on this forum yet?



http://transportationblog.dallasnews...-project.html/
The face that it's "sophisticated" and "green" will most likely be enough reason for the GOP (of which there's plenty in TX) to kill this project...
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Old August 14th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #2600
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That is a genius project. Also great to see another country looking at Shinkansen technology. The shinkansen was the best HSR train that I have been on.
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