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Old July 20th, 2008, 02:52 AM   #561
nomarandlee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
If you were really determined you could also blow up a highway, that's going to cause deaths as well. Are you saying that that possibility makes car travel unfeasible in your country?
1) My argument isn't that since HSR provides no real long term security/time beneiftt that it isn't worth doing. Just that that aspect of the argument is inherently flawed because the potential to do sabotage or terrorism to a train probably is easier then a plane.

Still, HSR can provide time savings because of things like easy inner city locations and less cumbersome transferring.

2) The threshold to ensure safety on public transport isn't the same as when using a private vehicle. Rightly or wrongly people feel in control when in their own vehicle as opposed to the lord knows who decides to get on a train/plane with them so as a consequence the threshold for invasion to privacy is much higher for public transit.

If things do go boom on trains one or a few times and there are massive causalities people will ask why the same can't be done to ensure safety on trains as what is done on planes. Politicians aren't most likely going to sell to the public that steps that are made to ensure they don't die by sabotage on trains shouldn't be applied to ensure them safety on trains as well. The majority of the public will not demand time over safety just like there hasn't been a major public push for time over safety by the public when it comes to air travel.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 04:24 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by Chicagoago View Post
Why MUST we have a very well developed rail system?
Well developed infrastructure forms the basis of any economy. (Passenger) rail is an integral part of a well developed infrastructer. That is why the US needs to have a very well developed rail system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
If things do go boom on trains one or a few times and there are massive causalities people will ask why the same can't be done to ensure safety on trains as what is done on planes. Politicians aren't most likely going to sell to the public that steps that are made to ensure they don't die by sabotage on trains shouldn't be applied to ensure them safety on trains as well. The majority of the public will not demand time over safety just like there hasn't been a major public push for time over safety by the public when it comes to air travel.
Things go boom on trains quite often as well FYI, actually more often than on planes really. Fact remains that the potential damage done during a terrorist attack on a train is a magnitute smaller than the potential damage done with a plane. Besides, due to the fact that the train is confined to the rails and can be remotely stopped, makes the danger of highjacking, a big security risk for planes, virtually non existant.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 11:24 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
If things do go boom on trains one or a few times and there are massive causalities people will ask why the same can't be done to ensure safety on trains as what is done on planes. Politicians aren't most likely going to sell to the public that steps that are made to ensure they don't die by sabotage on trains shouldn't be applied to ensure them safety on trains as well. The majority of the public will not demand time over safety just like there hasn't been a major public push for time over safety by the public when it comes to air travel.
Well - this seems to be the crux of your argument, but it's simply not true.
After the London Metro bombings, it was pretty clear to everyone that, tragically regrettable as it is, shit simply can happen, and trying to aim for a 100% "safe" system would do nothing but cripple that system.
In my country, we've had several train hijackings in the past as well, still doesn't mean that you have to go through a metal detector before boarding a Dutch train.
Your theory that, regardless of mode of transportation, everything will over time evolve toward "terror free" simply is not supported by the facts on the ground.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 06:37 PM   #564
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HSR is a socialist scheme to rip off individual liberties (like driving your car) in America and to make people depend on the nanny state which provides everything but takes away all your freedom. America, please don't fall for this and don't give up your gas guzzlers, your guns and your bibles unless you want to become like the Workers' Paradise Maoist Freedomless Europe. Go McCain!
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Old July 20th, 2008, 07:00 PM   #565
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HSR is a socialist scheme to rip off individual liberties (like driving your car) in America and to make people depend on the nanny state which provides everything but takes away all your freedom. America, please don't fall for this and don't give up your gas guzzlers, your guns and your bibles unless you want to become like the Workers' Paradise Maoist Freedomless Europe. Go McCain!
You do not overthrow a government through democratic reform.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 08:19 PM   #566
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You do not overthrow a government through democratic reform.
I think Arizona92's comments were tongue in cheek!
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Old July 21st, 2008, 02:41 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by Arizona92 View Post
HSR is a socialist scheme to rip off individual liberties (like driving your car) in America and to make people depend on the nanny state which provides everything but takes away all your freedom. America, please don't fall for this and don't give up your gas guzzlers, your guns and your bibles unless you want to become like the Workers' Paradise Maoist Freedomless Europe. Go McCain!
just to be sure, you are driving your car on a nice road provided by the government I assume, but well I am sure you're free to drive only on tracks left by animals, or in the desert.
And what about planes: hopefully the governement helps building the airports, and I guess that has never prevented any american to drive between 2 airports if they want. If you consider that HSR mainly compete with airlines for travel of less than 5 hours (around a 1000 km, depending), you can consider the rail infrastructure on the same level as airports.

and finally, for a short trip to Paris from Nice, or Edinburgh (where I am leaving now) I'll take the TGV or Eurostar against my car a tousand times. I can then use the good transport system of Paris, *free* of the hassle of the car (traffic jam, finding a parking, etc). But well, there is also a top class motorway all the way from Nice to Paris if you really want to spend your eight/nine hours driving at 75 mph.

Sorry if I am a bit sarcastic there, I am just picking the thread here, and I had to register to write that...
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Old July 21st, 2008, 04:20 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by UrbanImpact View Post
I don't understand how Montreal keeps getting tapped into HSR wishes...it's too expensive a destination for (N) America to be negotiating toward (sorry, Montreal)...




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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
New Orleans - Atlanta are 663 km
I hadn't realised this, thanks.....you're right: nothing; (it's a) piece of cake!
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Old July 21st, 2008, 06:00 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Yea, the Mountain West is really where any ideas or pramatism about cross country HSR go to die.

We should concentrate on regions first (Bo-Wash, Midwest, Texas, Cali, Pacifec NW, and Florida and go from there. Perhaps if Canda carried through its Windsor-Qeubec line that could also come into play.
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Thats the usual lame excuse. No one asks for a nation wide gap free network. There are several large regions in the US with sufficient density. They all lack appropriate High speed service.

The highspeed corridor map, urbanimpact posted above, shows how the network could already look today. The lack of density argument simply does not work there.
As usual your are looking at it from the wron side of the gunbarrell ...


HSR starts to work when THERES NOT a city to connect inside a short range.

For example ... use these calculations:
Quote:
1- draw a circle of 150km radius around chicago (comuter trains area)
2- draw a circle of 300km radius around chicago (fast interurban trains)
3- draw a circle of 450km around chicago (high speed trains)
4- draw a circle of 600km around chicago (lower "even" line between HST and planes)
5- draw a line 750km around chicago (higher "even" line between HST and planes)
A quick check:

1- cities in a circle of 150/200km radius around chicago (comuter trains area)
- reachable by a 160/200km/h train in about ~1h/1h30
- Kenosha , Milwaukee "corridor" (to North)
- Madison , Janesville (to NW)
- Elgin , Rockford (to NW)
- Aurora (to west)
- Peoria (to springfield , SW)
- bloomington (to springfield , SW)
- Champaign (to SW/S
- Lafayete (to Indianapolis , South , SE)
- ... etc etc etc

2- cities in a circle of 300/350km radius around chicago (fast interurban trains)
- reachable by a 160/200km/h train in ~2h or by a 300km/h train in ~1h/1h30
- Green Bay
- Cedar Rapids
- springfield
- indianapolis
- Fort waine
- Toledo

3- cities in a circle of 450/500km around chicago (high speed trains)
- reachable by a 160/200km/h train in ~2h30/3h or by a 300km/h train in ~1h30/2h
- saint Louis


4- cities in a circle of 600km around chicago (lower "even" line between HST and planes)
- reachable by a 160/200km/h train in ~3h/4h or by a 300km/h train in ~2h/2h30
- Mineapolis/St.Paul


5- cities in a line 700/750km around chicago (higher "even" line between HST and planes)
- reachable by a 160/200km/h train in ~4h/5h or by a 300km/h train in ~2h30/3h
- Sioux Falls
- Omaha ,Lincoln ,DesMoines
- Topeka , Kansas City
- Memphis
- Nashville , Knoxville ,
- Pitsburg
- Buffalo
- ... etc etc etc


for these a direct flight would already be faster (if it takes less than 3h/4h)
NYC = 1100km
Philadelphia = 1000km
Washinghton = 950km
Atlanta = 950km
Dallas/Ft.Worth = 1300km
Houston = 1500km
New Orleans = 1300km
Miami = 1900km
Wichita = 950km
Denver = 1450km
etc etc etc

... now just pick these ones and redo the math from scratch ... and try to associate High speed routes to the upgrading of "freight" routes (beter signaling , renewed tracks and electrification) , electrified urban rail networks in towns served by HSR and airport connections by rail ... among other things.





(sidenote: most medium/large cities can have 2 main HSR stations ... one in the center and one in the airport .. .just an example)
(sidenote2: air carriers can operate HSR services)
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Old July 21st, 2008, 06:16 AM   #570
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Why MUST we have a very well developed rail system? It's pathetic because it hasn't been developed. God forbid we don't do everything like Europe.

We designed our system around cars for close travels, and our enormous air travel system for longer trips. It worked fine for us for decades, and is now coming under pressure because of rising oil prices.

Yes it needs to be addressed and we're currently in trouble, but so many people are acting like since we didn't use the high speed rail scenario when we developed transportation in the country that we're BASTARDS.

We developed air and auto over train. We chose to do it and even though it has its problems, that's what we settled on decades ago. SORRY. I'd love to have a local high speed rail system in place, but I'm a little annoyed at all the high and mighty people who just wander through these threads bashing and yelling at the Americans now that our transportation needs to be addressed.
Atlanta = 89,379,287 passengers in 2007 ,wich is a 5.3% from previous year
Quote:
Hartsfield-Jackson held its ranking as the world's busiest airport in 2007, both in terms of passengers and number of flights, by accommodating 89.4 million passengers and 994,346 flights respectively.[3] Many of these flights are domestic flights from within the United States where Atlanta serves as a major transfer point for flights to and from smaller cities throughout the Southern United States.

the airport is increasingly becoming a major gateway for passengers boarding flights for other countries. In 2007, Atlanta's airport saw international traffic jump 10.2 percent over the previous year. More than 4.4 million passengers boarded international flights
89,4 - 4,4 = 85 million "comuters" around Atlanta ???

Chicago O'hare = 76,159,324
Quote:
Prior to 2005, O'Hare was the world's busiest airport in terms of takeoffs and landings. That year, mainly due to limits imposed by the federal government to reduce flight delays at O'Hare,[3] Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport became the busiest by that metric. O'Hare currently accounts for over a sixth of the nation's total flight cancellations.
Chicago Midway Airport = 19,378,885 passengers
Quote:
Chicago Midway International Airport ranked third amongst large airports in the nation for "Best On-Time Arrival Rates" in June 2007, with 75.4% of all flights (8,087) arriving on time
add Miami and Orlando (florida) , Detroit , Charlotte , Dallas , Phoenix , LA , SFrancisco , Minneapolis , Denver , NY/Newark , Las Vegas , etc and you get a lot of traffic out of these major hubs ...
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Old July 21st, 2008, 06:44 AM   #571
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Right, once you get west of say Omaha (which is already in very low density areas of the Midwest), you really don't have much of anything developed in any way except for a few smaller cities here and there, and Denver and Salt Lake City.

Once you get into this area, it's the equivilent of traveling from London to Athens before you hit the populated areas on the West Coast.

That's a LONG way to travel through on a train to get between populated areas. If you travel between London and Athens in Europe on a train, you're going to pass through areas with tens of millions of people. Trains make more sense to pick up and drop off people along the way.

In the US, there aren't millions upon millions of people between the Midwest and the West coast that you can reach except for maybe 1 or 2 rail lines through the isolated cities. People will naturally prefer to fly before they take a train 3,000KM through the wilderness. Certainly not very cost efficient for the train companies either!!
I would defenitely would go for a "urban HSR ring" in LA ... or better yet .. .an HSR Y ... something like Hisperia-Sanernardino-PalmSprings-Yuma and an arm to S.Diego.

but the real problem will always be how to cross the 100km wide LA metro area in a fast way ???

From Hisperia there would be 2 HSR networks ... one heading to S.Francisco/Sacramento and other heading to LasVegas (1h30 ... and mayby to Salt Lake city? but only at 225km/h ? 4/5h ?).
And from Palm Springs there would be a HSR to Yuma (1h) Phoenix(2h) and Tucson(2h30).

El Paso is at 400km(1h30/2h) from Tucson (west) , 360km (1h15/1h50) from Albuquerque (North) and at 850km (2h30/4h) from San Antonio , Austin, Waco and Dallas (east) ...

In texas we don't ask where one would put a HSR network ... one asks WHY THERES not one built already.

Denver could be the axis of a HSR nework itself ... From fortCollins(north) to Pueblo(south) ... it didn't even have to be "high speed" ... at 160km/h it would take less than 2h

etc etc etc


And to those wo claim that there is no HSR ... there are lots of places in europe where there in neither HSR nor overgrown airports ...
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Old July 21st, 2008, 06:48 AM   #572
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If you look at the Amtrak route map, it looks very sparse and pathetic out in the western US, but why would they throw down a really dense blanket of train options?

You've got almost 2,500,000 square KM between the northern Amtrak line and the Denver line. In that area you've only got maybe 4 million people spread out all across the area in small towns and ranches. Imagine how much money it would cost to link together 4 million people spread over an area three times the size of France.
and you get yourself 4 major airport hubs in the extremities:

- Seattle
- Salt Lake City
- Denver
- Minneapolis
(one could add others)

So just link "regional" transport (bus or short air travel) those 4 tips with either long distance HSR or long haul air travel ... HSR is there for when short/medium haul can be advantageous compared to flying (too much time lost in a small trip) or taking your own car (takes too long to get there) ... not to REPLACE everything else.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old July 21st, 2008, 07:33 AM   #573
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Funny thing is that people always support these things in polls, but how they'll actually vote on them we will have to see and I'm not overly optimistic even though I hope these HST lines get built.
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Old July 21st, 2008, 09:39 AM   #574
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The USA has plenty of areas that can support HSR. I'm hoping one of the next presidential canidates will push it (doubtfull). The map below clearly shows the areas that can support routes.

http://tti.tamu.edu/publications/res...s/corridor.jpg
I'm skeptical of most of those. Aside from the NE Corridor and California (and perhaps Chicago), I have a hard time believing any of the routes in that map will be cost-effective. In terms of distance and travel time, they may be competitive with air travel, but do they have the ridership to justify the huge infrastructure costs? I doubt it. I can just see billions being spent to build lines that will probably only carry a couple thousand a day. I'd much rather they fund local transportation instead.
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Old July 21st, 2008, 11:02 AM   #575
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I'm skeptical of most of those. Aside from the NE Corridor and California (and perhaps Chicago), I have a hard time believing any of the routes in that map will be cost-effective. In terms of distance and travel time, they may be competitive with air travel, but do they have the ridership to justify the huge infrastructure costs? I doubt it. I can just see billions being spent to build lines that will probably only carry a couple thousand a day. I'd much rather they fund local transportation instead.
It's doubtful we could see the entire map to be justified. But it will be much more cost-effective for the government to take over the infrastructure (maybe pay off the freight companies with trackage rights), separate passenger and freight lines (since we already have two parallel systems in many areas), and then upgrade them into the 21st century so that trains can run at 150 km/h.

Perhaps in 10 years we'll have coast-to-coast trains that run in 40 hours to cater to the average Joe who can no longer afford flying.

If it can be justified, full-scale HSR could be built on the busiest routes.
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Old July 21st, 2008, 05:57 PM   #576
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Perhaps in 10 years we'll have coast-to-coast trains that run in 40 hours to cater to the average Joe who can no longer afford flying.
But why do we need this? The US is just way too large for this kind of network. The days of romantic cross-country train travel are over. I'm poorer than your average Joe, but I sure as hell am not going to confine myself to a train for 40 hours just to get to New York. I would either save the money to go by plane or simply not make the trip.
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Old July 21st, 2008, 10:04 PM   #577
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But why do we need this? The US is just way too large for this kind of network. The days of romantic cross-country train travel are over. I'm poorer than your average Joe, but I sure as hell am not going to confine myself to a train for 40 hours just to get to New York. I would either save the money to go by plane or simply not make the trip.
Once the airline industry goes belly up, we'll have a two-tier transportation system: the rich can afford to fly, and everyone else takes cross-country train trips. This is the case in Russia and China, so it's entirely possible on the North American continent.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 06:07 AM   #578
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I think that's where we differ in opinion... Assuming the airline industry goes "belly up," I don't see people taking the train to get across the country. They're either going to fork over the cash for a plane ticket or just not go (and perhaps find another means to accomplish whatever they intended to accomplish for their trip in the first place). It's getting easier and easier to do business and such without having to leave the home or office at all... Seriously, do you think your average working adult wants to waste what amounts to 2-3 days on a train just to save a few bucks? If it's a trip they really need to make, they'll go by plane... If not, they probably won't make the trip at all.
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 06:38 AM   #579
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\They're either going to fork over the cash for a plane ticket or just not go (and perhaps find another means to accomplish whatever they intended to accomplish for their trip in the first place).
You're underestimating the latent demand for travel. I'm a four-hour flight away from where my family lives. We're kind of well off, but what if a return air ticket costs $5000 or more? I will still want to travel, so I'll take the longer rail travel times instead and pay much less. Likewise many people will want to travel even if they can't fly. Under this circumstances the government will be forced to build a vast passenger rail system.

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It's getting easier and easier to do business and such without having to leave the home or office at all...
The reverse is true. Does everything in the store magically appears? Freight costs have skyrocketed lately.

Quote:
Seriously, do you think your average working adult wants to waste what amounts to 2-3 days on a train
People in Russia and China and India do it all the time.

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just to save a few bucks?
It will be saving a few *thousand* bucks. Which for everyone not making six-figures, is the only choice.

Quote:
If it's a trip they really need to make, they'll go by plane... If not, they probably won't make the trip at all.
There will still be demand for travel whether they can afford to fly or not. How do you think all those millions of Chinese factory workers commute?
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 03:38 PM   #580
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350 km/h is going to be a very challenging speed unless the route doesn't stop along the way. How much will it cost to make such tracks available?
Not relevant. The route can have many stations but that doesn't mean the train has to stop at them. Rarely do HSR trains stop at all stations except in Japan where they manage to fit stoppers inbetween the expresses which overtake the stoppers at stations, on some routes, but it is the only HSR in the world to do so.
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