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Old December 10th, 2008, 12:34 AM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale View Post
Today's Wall Street Journal projects that Obama's infrastructure plan will allow 8.5% for rail transit and 27.5% for roads.

If this was Bush most of you would be screaming.
Bush wouldn't even provide funds for such projects.

Yes the split is less than ideal, but it is better than nothing, which is what Bush would have given us.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #722
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It's a shame.... it takes about 12 hours to go form Los Angeles to San Francisco using the Amtrak when it only takes about 6 - 8 hours using a car...
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Old December 10th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #723
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New lines dont turn out to be that much more expensive than upgrading and mucking about with the existing track, not to mention annoying every passenger trying to use it in the meanwhile. Build a new line.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 02:19 AM   #724
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I've been thinking about the NEC and I totally agree, there needs to be HSR on the Northeast, it should only take 3 hours to get from Boston to DC, not 6 1/2 hours. 200 mph would be a great feat, but where is the room? Is it time to go Chinese and make room for HSR?
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:02 AM   #725
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Excellent thread, I agree with almost every opinion here (except for the few glorifying gas guzzling).

This country has a long way to grow up. But so far, half of the country has its head stuck deep in the sand.

If the Democratic majority has enough guts and courage, then it should slam-dunk a similar 100b+ railroad funding bill that should develop, wait, HSR in the Bible belt states! That should convert people from evangelism to HSRism.

Also, the Utah Mormons crusading for freedom-of-reli-oops,roads&SUVdom won't interfere if we try to build HSR here in California. LOL.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:10 AM   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARailSystemsEngineer View Post
I'm lucky to be British, and to have been a child in the '70s, when we were blessed with the HSTs, which are still thrashing up and down the country 30+ years later at 125 mph. And, I suppose, Jimmy Saville, to compensate. Can anyone name a diesel train to compare, in terms of comfort, and style? and the smell off the brakes?

Rse
Only the british can claim the diesel-HST crown ... 125 classed HST 's , Virgin Voiagers (and others similar in the UK) and the failing ICE-VT of DB are basically the only ones running daily at speeds of 125mph around the globe under diesel power.

USA just has too long distances between places for HST outside major aglomerates to be viable ... air traffic has a great advantage there.

And considering this little fact it should be as an extension of the american air traffic that HSR efforts should concentrate.

for example in california linking LA and S.francisco (and it's airports), or the connection to/from L.Vegas(And its airport) could be a massive gain to air companies operating to those air hubs as well as linking the regional metropolis to eachother.
LA itself could gain from a comuter/regional HSR netwok if it's own ... Chicago(all the midwest) , Florida-atlanta , texas and some other places also would see enormous beneficts from a rail reforms mega-plan.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:18 AM   #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkambing View Post
Do you think that interest groups from detroit auto industry and also from the aviation industry hamper the development of train system in US?Because they want people to drive cars or fly, its one of the reasons that many public transportation systems like tram has disappeared from US cities, fine example would be LA with its huge freeway network but bad public transport.
This is a missconception ...


Tram«s were replaced by buses because these had advantages that culd not be used by trams (namely one had to build tram tracks everywhere) .. .and long distance trains lost big time to the plain when this entered the jet era ... same fate happened to steamers/trans-oceanic travell.

It just evolved ... trains didn't ... at least in the USA they didn't evolve.

for example in europe BUDD and Pullman coaches were a sign of "fast" rail travell so railways continuously made progress on rail infraestructure ... but in the end most of european railway companies ended up as a small group of nationalized railway companies.

in the USA they remained as fully private companies and adapted to ever changing conditions ... the passenger traffic in USA moved from rail to air/road in the same way that freight traffic moved from rail to road in europe.
Nowadays is much more dififcurt to recover the lost freight in europe that it would be to recover the passenger freight in the USA.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:19 AM   #728
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too many people against it and people look at it reginally/locally rather than the national outcome

if tax money from say florida is being used to build it in california than people will complain and be against "THEIR" tax money be used out in "that" place
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:27 AM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
That makes sense

The main difference of United States respect Europe (excluding Russia) is having long distances between cities (often a distance of 1000 km between two main cities could be considered 'avarage'), so airplane fits better
Anyway I think that HSR service could be built to link quickly East Coast cities as in California as well... on distances of less of 800 kms HS is competitive with plane: that's why in Europe or in Japan it works

Maybe there is even a penalization due to internal flights low fares in US
But today 'internal' flights in EU are also cheap thanks to low cost companies: infact in these years internal (and not only) flights passengers increasead a lot; that, anyway, didn't have any efects on HSR passengers or web which keep increasing
I think then the challenge in US is all to find out someone who wants to put his money

Maybe the Govt. with Obama's new 'new deal'?

Anyway I hope they're going to build electrified lines with a maximum speed at least of 150 mph (110 mph is not considered HS in Western Europe and Japan) to have 'appeal' enough 'against' the plane
I don't think that is fair. Texas has some of the largest cities and metroplexes in the nation, and they are close.

DFW --> Austin: 320km (200miles)
DFW --> San Antonio: 432km (270miles)
DFW --> Houston: 382km (240miles)
San Antonio --> Houston: 320km (200miles)
Austin --> Houston: 265km (166miles)

A train linking those cities in a triangle would serve a population of greater than 15 million (or roughly 64% of the state's population!).
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:41 AM   #730
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There are many large cities positioned close to each other in the US.

But too many people have backward mindsets.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:50 AM   #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale View Post
Today's Wall Street Journal projects that Obama's infrastructure plan will allow 8.5% for rail transit and 27.5% for roads.

If this was Bush most of you would be screaming.
How much did Bush spend in comparison?
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Old December 10th, 2008, 05:03 AM   #732
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Difficult...sprawl has made it nearly impossible. Maybe maglev, with its ability to be elevated and fly around curves is the only option.

One could route trains through rural areas along highways instead of through city-centers and have suburban stations like they do in Southern France... that would allow new segments of line along the NJ turpike or elevated in its medium. This would not cover Maryland/Delaware though.

There is room in inland CT through Hartford to Boston....there is a major highway that has more free space than the coastal routes. This would be a better route than the Metro North New Haven line which is too congested.

There would be major NIMBY action though in these rural areas.

Only other option is to upgrade the existing line to a higher speed with multiple tunnels to straighten out curves while avoiding built up areas. It would be nowhere near 200mph.

I think the goal is to get NY-WAS to 2 hours, which would basically kill the shuttles and allow NY airports some breathing room.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:16 AM   #733
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A completely new line can be built through the countryside, skirting the suburbs as much as possible. Then they can take a page from how the TGV works, and make ample connections with regular railway lines to allow a broader choice of destinations.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:46 AM   #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperfect Ending View Post
It's a shame.... it takes about 12 hours to go form Los Angeles to San Francisco using the Amtrak when it only takes about 6 - 8 hours using a car...
That's a very long time...

Didn't the Cali HSR video say it would take something like 3 or 4 hours once the new line opens?
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:25 AM   #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsua0491 View Post
I don't think that is fair. Texas has some of the largest cities and metroplexes in the nation, and they are close.

DFW --> Austin: 320km (200miles)
DFW --> San Antonio: 432km (270miles)
DFW --> Houston: 382km (240miles)
San Antonio --> Houston: 320km (200miles)
Austin --> Houston: 265km (166miles)

A train linking those cities in a triangle would serve a population of greater than 15 million (or roughly 64% of the state's population!).
Or roughly the same amount of population as Paris all by itself.



Nonetheless that east coast is a huge "dot-here-to-create-HSR" straight line from boston to Miami ... but since you don't have the state-funded-mindset for railways it's dificult to stretch the NEC all the way down to the Key's.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:27 AM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongeg View Post
too many people against it and people look at it reginally/locally rather than the national outcome

if tax money from say florida is being used to build it in california than people will complain and be against "THEIR" tax money be used out in "that" place
Simple solution ... just use "their oun" taxpayers money in each state ... namely create a state-sized amtrack ... and "interstate" Amtracks for buiding across the border.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:35 AM   #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperfect Ending View Post
It's a shame.... it takes about 12 hours to go form Los Angeles to San Francisco using the Amtrak when it only takes about 6 - 8 hours using a car...
6/8 hours to go just 500km/330miles ???


Night trains usualy depart in time for people to have dinner on-board and arrive at breakfast timenext day no matter how long the distance (considering a 1 night journey).

It could be a "les-than-tree-hours-" HSR journey ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:38 AM   #738
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Or you could do what california is doing, visualizations do help after all. If there have been previous studies, revive them. Changing a mindset will take time, however, if the younger generations actually tell there representatives more rail, then we can help change the mindset.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:41 AM   #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
New lines dont turn out to be that much more expensive than upgrading and mucking about with the existing track, not to mention annoying every passenger trying to use it in the meanwhile. Build a new line.
Urban sprawl to big ... no room to build new lines in most of the NEC

Quote:
Originally Posted by G5man View Post
I've been thinking about the NEC and I totally agree, there needs to be HSR on the Northeast, it should only take 3 hours to get from Boston to DC, not 6 1/2 hours. 200 mph would be a great feat, but where is the room? Is it time to go Chinese and make room for HSR?
Either remove Philadelpia or NewYork ... of even both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
A completely new line can be built through the countryside, skirting the suburbs as much as possible. Then they can take a page from how the TGV works, and make ample connections with regular railway lines to allow a broader choice of destinations.
How do you serve the NEC properly going by the suburbia ???

and how do you get around the FRE speed rules ???
the only feasible solution to the NEC's problems seems to go the japanese way ... either pay the price for massive viaducts or extra large tunnels
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:03 AM   #740
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Just found thia article... interesting read:

http://www.trainweb.com/travel/rambling/r961019.htm

Quote:
(About half of the NEC's total traffic rides just in the 90 miles between New York and Philadelphia.)
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; December 10th, 2008 at 09:09 AM.
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