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Old December 10th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Difficult...sprawl has made it nearly impossible. Maybe maglev, with its ability to be elevated and fly around curves is the only option.
Above 200mph the minimum curve radius is 4km otherwise its uncomfortable to passengers. You can't tilt the track any more to cope because otherwise if it stops on that section the passengers are still made uncomfortable by being tilted whilst stationery. An actively tilting Maglev on the other hand - but that hasn't been tried anywhere. Maglev gives little infrastructural benefit in terms of route options, except its capability with gradient.

I reckon a new route should be built, following the I84 from northern New York where there is space, to Middletown, then skirt the to the south of Hartford. Links on and off to the current line can be made here. then conitnue around Hartfor, the classic route can rejoin to the north of the city, and then the new line follows roughly the I84 to Boston. Another upgrade or new route loop can be mde to the south for Providence.

This would not be a perfect solution, but would allow;

New York - Hartford HSR, then classic line to Boston.
New York - Boston all along HSR express, maybe from Phile and the like.
New York - Hartford via classic line and then fast HSR to Boston.

As well as other options.

Last edited by elfabyanos; December 10th, 2008 at 12:40 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
How do you serve the NEC properly going by the suburbia ???
Provide ample connections with the classic rail lines. That's what France does.

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and how do you get around the FRE speed rules ???
FRA will have to change the regulations to be non-19th century.

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the only feasible solution to the NEC's problems seems to go the japanese way ... either pay the price for massive viaducts or extra large tunnels
There will be massive construction either way.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:15 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
I doubt that is high on his list
Agreed (no matter who the chief be there).
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:19 AM   #744
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Really, you oughtta think about taking arithmatic again.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 02:21 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
Really, you oughtta think about taking arithmatic again.
Are you TROLLING over here also ???


What arithmetic should I learn when I put a biased quote from a 10 y.o. article depicting some fellow rantings about the Amtrack problems (at that time)??? or at least what he tought were the Amtrack problems.


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Old December 11th, 2008, 02:54 AM   #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
Provide ample connections with the classic rail lines. That's what France does.

FRA will have to change the regulations to be non-19th century.

There will be massive construction either way.
Isn't the biggest speed problem precisely in the urban areas ??? NY-Phillie seem to be a "comuter" corridor for the entire route ... only a complete bypass would improve timings.

NY-boston would greatly benefit from a direct route without those curvy section between cunecticut and Rhode Island ... for example a NewHaven-NorthBradford-NewLondon-Pawcatuck (just pulled this out of my a**) new "segregated" HSL (55 miles and let's say that it could be a 200mph/320km/h line) would be a 20 minutes trip in a 150mph/240 km/h regional train(compare it to the 1h09/1h17 today) and the Pawcatuck-Kingston-Providence-Boston would gain almost nothing from a paralel segregated HSL (actualy out of the 85miles of that section 23 are in urban Providence and 11 are in Urban Boston while re remaining are straight enought for HSR to be feasible) and times are in the 1h10/1h25 region (could be less?) ... boston-NewHaven seem to be 2h03 ... 230km/140miles is inside the 1h range with a HSR.
Notice that direct times between major cities werenot taken into acount here ... considering that between NewHaven and NewYork it's all build up I don0t even considered the cost of building a segregated HSR there (use a highway or built EL or tunnel? and see what get's you "less" into a deep hole of perpetual debth?).
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 11th, 2008, 03:12 AM   #747
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A completely lunatic project would be the "upgrading" of the "Pen Station"-JFK/LaGuardia-Hempstead-Greenport corridor to allow HSR usage (about 160km/100miles long) and a brand new under-the-sea tunnel (some 16km/10miles) long followed by a 40km/25miles bypass of the curvy NewLondon stretch ... from there on track upgrading would be easier up to Providence and boston... that would be feasible to american eyes ??? from the north entrance of the tunnel to New Haven the route could be upgraded easily in the same manner as in the previous post ??? and the region "north" of the NY-NHaven could benefit from a completely new railway corridor (let's say some 10/20 miles north of the current NEC corridor ?)
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 11th, 2008, 05:34 AM   #748
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I'm having a hard time understanding what route people are talking about. I-84 is big hills, and only gets you as far as the Mass Pike. There is not much room to run from there into Boston, most certainly not along the pike - there is no median there and goes through dense areas. Likewise the western portion of 95 is pretty dense, again hills, and it is anything but a straight line.

Then again, for the eastern portion of the NEC, your important points are Providence, and the cities along the southern CT shoreline. Worcester and Hartford are nice to include, but they aren't as tied in with NYC.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 06:33 AM   #749
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For a inland CT rail route, some incredible improvements would have to be made. Massive actually, since the vast majority of the route can't be currently used at all, because it's either been cut off, or destroyed. According to Google Maps, the easiest way to make an inland connection that would totally avoid the NEC would be taking the Metro North's Harlem Line to Brewster, which then connects to a line in Danbury.

After a few miles east of Danbury, there is no rail...so a totally new railroad would have to be built from there to Waterbury. From Waterbury to Hartford, there is rail, but it's single-tracked and abandoned and would need massive reinvestment to be used again, and from Hartford onward...the same thing. Some areas east of Hartford to Providence would need new tracks altogether...many are in the anticipation of being torn down and replaced with a biking trail route. And there is absolutely no direct rail connection between Hartford and Boston.

Best case scenario for a new inland CT route would be to build a new one altogether. It would cost probably less than revitalizing these railroads, and would definitely cost less than building a new HSR line in the coast, which is too crowded and filled with a whole host of restrictions and NIMBYs, and the land costs are some of the highest in the country. However, the terrain is tricky because it is hilly. This is a major reason why, historically, there were more north-south railroads and roads in general in Connecticut than east-west.

I made a map (because I was bored) of the proposed inland network.

Black: railroad in service
Green: railroad exists, but is abandoned
Blue: a new railroad would have to be built


[IMG]http://i35.************/4jlw84.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 11th, 2008, 06:44 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Cloudship View Post
Then again, for the eastern portion of the NEC, your important points are Providence, and the cities along the southern CT shoreline. Worcester and Hartford are nice to include, but they aren't as tied in with NYC.
If you ever want to see HSR on the east coast, limiting it to the Connecticut shoreline especially between NY and New Haven, which is notoriously the slowest and restrictive section of the Northeast Corridor, is not an option. As I said earlier, the feasibility of ever creating a new line, let alone renovating the current one, is almost nil. The NIMBYs there alone are staggering.

An inland option, that bypasses these cities, may actually be the most viable option. There definitely is the demand of connecting Hartford to New York by a (better) rail link. And when it comes to traveling between NY and Boston even now, the inland route via I-84 and Hartford is preferred by many bus lines and drivers. But let's be realistic...none of this, with our politicians and current situation, is not happening anytime soon.

Last edited by Xusein; December 11th, 2008 at 06:51 AM.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 04:34 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by 10ROT View Post
For a inland CT rail route, some incredible improvements would have to be made. Massive actually, since the vast majority of the route can't be currently used at all, because it's either been cut off, or destroyed. According to Google Maps, the easiest way to make an inland connection that would totally avoid the NEC would be taking the Metro North's Harlem Line to Brewster, which then connects to a line in Danbury.

After a few miles east of Danbury, there is no rail...so a totally new railroad would have to be built from there to Waterbury. From Waterbury to Hartford, there is rail, but it's single-tracked and abandoned and would need massive reinvestment to be used again, and from Hartford onward...the same thing. Some areas east of Hartford to Providence would need new tracks altogether...many are in the anticipation of being torn down and replaced with a biking trail route. And there is absolutely no direct rail connection between Hartford and Boston.

Best case scenario for a new inland CT route would be to build a new one altogether. It would cost probably less than revitalizing these railroads, and would definitely cost less than building a new HSR line in the coast, which is too crowded and filled with a whole host of restrictions and NIMBYs, and the land costs are some of the highest in the country. However, the terrain is tricky because it is hilly. This is a major reason why, historically, there were more north-south railroads and roads in general in Connecticut than east-west.

I made a map (because I was bored) of the proposed inland network.

Black: railroad in service
Green: railroad exists, but is abandoned
Blue: a new railroad would have to be built
One thing that people in the USA will learn in the near future ... massive HSR lines came at an proibitive cost...

Quote:
[IMG]http://i35.************/4jlw84.jpg_[/IMG]
The higher cost of the northern aproach to Hartford is what made me propose the lunatic and radical southern aproach via a under the sea tunnel.



BLUE(dark) = upgraded lines under 100mph/ 160km/h
RED = upgraded lines above 100mph/ 160km/h
BLUE(light) = new railway routes (above 150mph/ 240km/h ???)

Yellow numbers:
1- urban NYC comuter/metro system upgraded to 100mph ?
2- upgraded corridor (segregated , level crossings supressed , improved electrical and signal systems , the works) ... a true HSR of above 125mph
3- a ney HSR linking Greenport to New London and Westerly (alowing throught traffic from NewHaven to N.London)
4- upgraded track from westerly to the north
5- urban NIC comuter/metro system upgraded to 100mph ?
6,7,8- CT railways upgraded to 100/125/150mph where possible ?


Basically the blue/red lines denote "fast" services to NYC at speeds of 100mph or above.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM   #752
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Why do we believe that high speed rail works best in areas that have high density...
And then when we discuss hsr in this area, we say it would be difficult because it is too crowded.

On another note: That LI route is very novel.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 08:27 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Facial View Post
How much did Bush spend in comparison?
I don't know, but I do know it wouldn't be enough for this crowd.

And I'm no Bush-supporter.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 06:26 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
I find it so incredibly frustrating (as a USA resident) that they can't get their finances and everything together to build a few lines of what they call "High speed rail" (110mph max).
The reasons have been fairly well studied, but it really boils down to several factors:

1. US passenger rail industry -- once the undisputed world leader -- died a long time ago. There is simply no expertise anymore in the USA, and even in rare cases where projects get built, they pale in comparison to what a competent European or Japanese firm might have done for the same amount of money (i.e. Acela, BART, or just about any light-rail line).

2. The FRA has literally outlawed high-speed, and "near" high-speed rail in the US. The regulatory and safety hurdles to implement 110mph service make it WAY to expensive, relative to the alternatives.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 06:46 AM   #755
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Why is rail not popular in the U.S. and why is it so hard to build a HSR?

Well at one point trains were king in this country. Then along came the airlines. As the airlines gained more of the market share, trains started to suffer, until a point where they needed support from the federal government. However because rails had this notoriety for not only being very important but also monopoly's, the government turned its back on those companies and they eventually failed, and turned into the public rail systems you see today (both regional and commuter).

Since rails were let to rot, people here got used to driving or flying and rails never got a chance because along with there being no real private passenger rail operator, the FRA has proscribed such safety standards and limits to reach anything above 79 mph that a government like the U.S. would find expensive and completely superflous.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:37 PM   #756
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That depends of various factors:

a) if one considers that HSR is a priority over comuter/regional traffic in that corridor you should build a completely new railway ... wich costs a lot

b) if one considers that HSR is compatible with the local comuter/regional traffic one should acomodate both services into the same railway


As a sidenote ... some local comuter services only serve the city proper ... in other placs their comuter stretch for as much as 100miles/160km and in these "fast" regional/comuter services over HSR exist (in some cases even at 150/200mph like true HSR)

sidenote: "novel" ??? define that please!
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Old December 12th, 2008, 05:21 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by Drunkill View Post
As for the speed of construction, my guess is that the US would have a smaller workforce with higher safety standards, meaning it'd take a lot longer to complete.
For a comparison, the regional rail network here was rebuilt to 160km/h standards in five years, which included a few delays due to the project running out of funding. 500km of track was essentially rebuilt and a new signalling system was put into place.

Long-distance links have long died out and these days are marketed as high-end rail cruises, but railways have a very useful purpose serving areas too close for efficient air travel such as those within about 3-4 hours of travelling time.

Of course, with the FRA in the way, things are a lot different. Australia's mish-mash of different gauges dating back from colonial days means that passenger services and interstate freight at least happen to be separated. But the Regional Fast Rail project has made it very difficult to run intrastate freight in conjunction with fast passenger services.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 06:02 PM   #758
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I don't think that is fair. Texas has some of the largest cities and metroplexes in the nation, and they are close.

DFW --> Austin: 320km (200miles)
DFW --> San Antonio: 432km (270miles)
DFW --> Houston: 382km (240miles)
San Antonio --> Houston: 320km (200miles)
Austin --> Houston: 265km (166miles)

A train linking those cities in a triangle would serve a population of greater than 15 million (or roughly 64% of the state's population!).
Yeah, but... please don't forget that DFW (That's Dallas-Fort Worth, ainnit?) is in itself a huge sprawl and there's not to my knowledge a very good local infrastructure (metros, commuter lines...). Which being so, you'd still need a car to get to/from a central HS station. The European experience is, you only get a really good load factor on highspeed trains when the end-stations of those trains are the hubs of strong local transport networks. Otherwise, what are passengers supposed to do? Drive to DFW highspeed station and leave their car there; then take the fast train to Houston; then rent a car in Huston? That's not realistic. In that case they'll drive.
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Old December 13th, 2008, 04:42 AM   #759
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"Novel" as it is a very original and interesting idea. However, It would possibly not see the light of day (not saying the inland CT route would be). Being from the area, a link between Connecticut and Long Island has been one that has been desired a lot, but a concrete plan has never come out of the ground. Road or Rail...a link should have been decades ago when it was cheap.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 11:37 AM   #760
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It was never "cheap" ... it was inflation adjusted.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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