daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 7th, 2009, 10:26 PM   #781
davsot
Perro que ladra no muerde
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,243
Likes (Received): 47

When is the last time Amtrak made an expansion to a certain track or opened a new line?
davsot no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 8th, 2009, 12:52 AM   #782
Bulbous
Registered User
 
Bulbous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 329
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
Read the rest of my previous quote, i speak about conditions. But anyway, it shows where we are going with trains. If we are able to hit almost 400 mph with modified material now, we will maybe hit it one day on regular base. Remember, last century, in 100 years, we went from 50 to more than 300 km/h in commercial speed and people are always eager for more speed as long as it is safe. Trains will still compete with planes and trains will still compete with other trains like the Maglev too in Germany or China (but too expensive still).

Top speeds were approaching 160kph in 1900 in the UK, which is a little more than 50kph...... also, the track for the speed test with the TGV was closely monitored and specially prepared, and along with the shortening and repowering of the train itself, would lead to a huge increase in costs should it be used over a whole line...... this increase in cost now makes Maglev look nice and cheap, for the same or higher speed.......
Bulbous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2009, 04:21 PM   #783
JoFMO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I remember arguing with another member within the forum about the speed limit of conventional train and my belief is that we are at the limit in terms of going faster economically.
You are right. Wind resistance for a train/maglev at 500km/h is similar to a plane flying at the speed of sound. So unless we move to concepts like the Swissmetro vision which operates all underground and in vakuum, somewhere between 400-500km/h might be the limit for ground-based travel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Speed of conventional trains relies on lighter/stronger construction material, stronger magnets, and material with little loss in electrical rely.
Japanese maglev technology utilizes all three technology using carbon fiber material as hull and super conductors for magnets and electrical power lines.
One of the reasons why maglev is pursued is becuase it is more effiecient than conventional rail due to loss of energy through friction of rail and wheel.
(Basically it is more energy efficient to move mass that are afloat then that has contact with another surface creating friction)
Wear and tear of rails also accumilates exponentially with speed so it is meaningless to pursue conventional rail knowing it is going to cost more doing maintenance of rail and trainset when maglev has less impact to the guide way with no physical connection.
You also need to take in consideration of minimum curve radius for conventional rail again due to wear and tear (through horizontal force) while maglev has higher tolerance.
Wear and tear occurs, but modern high speed line rails have a life expectancy of 20 years before the rail has to be replaced. So wear and tear is not a big figure to condsider!
Wear and tear is significant on sharp curves for long and heavy freight trains. On straight high speed lines it is not a big issue!

Can you back up your claim that wear & tear accumulates exponentially? As far as I know it occurs when acceleration and braking, but it is nearly neglectable for rails rolling on wheels. I have never heard that wear & tear increases exponential!
JoFMO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #784
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulbous View Post
Top speeds were approaching 160kph in 1900 in the UK, which is a little more than 50kph...... also, the track for the speed test with the TGV was closely monitored and specially prepared, and along with the shortening and repowering of the train itself, would lead to a huge increase in costs should it be used over a whole line...... this increase in cost now makes Maglev look nice and cheap, for the same or higher speed.......


The same costs that are the "standard" maglev costs???

the TGV tests (some call them stunt job but it was actually a dozen or so test runs) was actually pushing the envelope of "conventional" rail technology to a new level ...

And by the way ... there are rumors that they didn't even push the TGV that far in terms of speed ... they just made it to "get close" to the Maglev record.

Considering that with the current technologies maglev would never get cheaper than planes ... it's not an alternative but just a competing pricely option ... choose to flight or go at surface level for an equivalent price (at medium distances).

And last time i checked Amtrak was on the RAILway business ... not air traffic business.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #785
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
You are right. Wind resistance for a train/maglev at 500km/h is similar to a plane flying at the speed of sound. So unless we move to concepts like the Swissmetro vision which operates all underground and in vakuum, somewhere between 400-500km/h might be the limit for ground-based travel.
Yeah yeah, maglevs can't travel faster then 500Km but conventional trains can, I get it.
JR already tested and continue testing at speeds close to 600Km with passengers aboard meaning it's their safety operation speed limit not design speed limit.
I have heard from someone on this forum that JR places a 25% margin for safety reasons so I assume that the actual design speed limit is around 770Km/h.
By the way, the present land speed record is 1216Km/h. The fastest manned rail vehicle is a manned rocket sled, that travelled at 1,017 km/h (635 mph).Unmanned rocket sleds that ride on rails have reached over 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph), equivalent to Mach 8.5.
Do I need to go on?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
Wear and tear occurs, but modern high speed line rails have a life expectancy of 20 years before the rail has to be replaced. So wear and tear is not a big figure to condsider!
Wear and tear is significant on sharp curves for long and heavy freight trains. On straight high speed lines it is not a big issue!

Can you back up your claim that wear & tear accumulates exponentially? As far as I know it occurs when acceleration and braking, but it is nearly neglectable for rails rolling on wheels. I have never heard that wear & tear increases exponential!
Oh boy, so you're claiming they do not do maintenance nor adjust the sleepers during that time as well. No wonder US have so many train accidents. And please when you make a claim at least give me some reference.
Maintenance of rails includes railgrinding that prolongs the life of rail. What they do is restore the profile and remove irregularities from worn rail track to extend its life and to improve the ride of trains using the track.

The faster you go more downforce is applied to the rails and at curves more stress is applied through centripetal force to the rail by weigh of train set multipled by square amount of speed. Is that exponential enough?
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #786
Bulbous
Registered User
 
Bulbous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 329
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
The same costs that are the "standard" maglev costs???

the TGV tests (some call them stunt job but it was actually a dozen or so test runs) was actually pushing the envelope of "conventional" rail technology to a new level ...

And by the way ... there are rumors that they didn't even push the TGV that far in terms of speed ... they just made it to "get close" to the Maglev record.

Considering that with the current technologies maglev would never get cheaper than planes ... it's not an alternative but just a competing pricely option ... choose to flight or go at surface level for an equivalent price (at medium distances).

And last time i checked Amtrak was on the RAILway business ... not air traffic business.
Selective quoting will never get you very far in the rational arguement game, as shown by the ignorance of my final sentence above. This increase in costs for the infrastructure will bring the costs of steel on steel transport into the realm of maglev, for the same or lower speed than that achievable using the JR version of maglev. Therefore, if you wish for that level of investment in the steel on steel infrastructure, then any cost arguements now go out the window, and the decision between conventional rail or maglev would be based on other parameters, such as design speed, capacity, ability to travel outside the dedicated network, and so on......
Bulbous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 04:52 AM   #787
JoFMO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Yeah yeah, maglevs can't travel faster then 500Km but conventional trains can, I get it.
JR already tested and continue testing at speeds close to 600Km with passengers aboard meaning it's their safety operation speed limit not design speed limit.
I have heard from someone on this forum that JR places a 25% margin for safety reasons so I assume that the actual design speed limit is around 770Km/h.
By the way, the present land speed record is 1216Km/h. The fastest manned rail vehicle is a manned rocket sled, that travelled at 1,017 km/h (635 mph).Unmanned rocket sleds that ride on rails have reached over 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph), equivalent to Mach 8.5.
Do I need to go on?
Nobody said that either Maglev or conventional trains could not run faster than 500km/h.

It just does not make sense to run that fast at ground level due to the in square increasing wind resistance. Transportation ideas like the Swissmetro concept, running in vacuum tubes under ground would be different. A Maglev in a vacuum tube therefore could certainly run with 900km/h. Why not. Maybe someday we will have such a transportation linking Frankfurt-London with New York-Chicago-LA. From there we could transfer to conventional high speed rails to get to Berlin, San Francisco or wherever.

Think of commercial airplanes. They could much much faster than they do. They seem to have reached a practical limit at around 900km/h. Same happens with land based transportation at around 500km/h.

I hope that you dnon't suggest that we all start to traven in manned rocket sled...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Oh boy, so you're claiming they do not do maintenance nor adjust the sleepers during that time as well. No wonder US have so many train accidents. And please when you make a claim at least give me some reference.
Maintenance of rails includes railgrinding that prolongs the life of rail. What they do is restore the profile and remove irregularities from worn rail track to extend its life and to improve the ride of trains using the track.

The faster you go more downforce is applied to the rails and at curves more stress is applied through centripetal force to the rail by weigh of train set multipled by square amount of speed. Is that exponential enough?
Once again, I did not claim that they don't do maintenance. Everything has to be maintained. But the actual track of an high speed railway line lasts
20 years. I have not claimed anything else!

And regarding your argument with head problems on rails (I promised to not further derail the other thread), you don't want to seriously compare European/Japanese high speed lines with dodgy American freight lines, are you?
JoFMO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 10:02 AM   #788
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
It just does not make sense to run that fast at ground level due to the in square increasing wind resistance. Transportation ideas like the Swissmetro concept, running in vacuum tubes under ground would be different. A Maglev in a vacuum tube therefore could certainly run with 900km/h. Why not. Maybe someday we will have such a transportation linking Frankfurt-London with New York-Chicago-LA. From there we could transfer to conventional high speed rails to get to Berlin, San Francisco or wherever.
Not this pipedream again.
For your information your cherished Swissmetro concept's net energy consumption will probably be alot higher then any forementioned transportation method simply becuase maintaining a vacuum containment surrounded by air rich enviorment is like trying to scoop out water from a boat that has many holes.
Also since ground force is not applicable, you'll need double amount of coils and extra set of magnets to maintain levitation again increasing energy consumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
Think of commercial airplanes. They could much much faster than they do. They seem to have reached a practical limit at around 900km/h. Same happens with land based transportation at around 500km/h.

I hope that you dnon't suggest that we all start to traven in manned rocket sled...
Again, oh boy.
Jet engines and maglevs utilizes totally different technology that are not compatible for simple comparison.
Jet turbo engines are simply more economically effecient at sub-sonic speeds. They can fly faster but to do so they first need to redesign the entire plane.(Remember the Concorde?) It can be done but with a price.
JR Maglevs have already demonstrated that it can be done in a economic scale and they have announced their findings to the public. That is why JR is moving to the next phase. So don't give me this bull ShiXt that it has a practical limit nonsense. if you have an arguement give facts first.
By the way the rocket sled was an example that supersonic speed at ground level is achievable but I guess you can't digest the meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
Once again, I did not claim that they don't do maintenance. Everything has to be maintained. But the actual track of an high speed railway line lasts
20 years. I have not claimed anything else!

And regarding your argument with head problems on rails (I promised to not further derail the other thread), you don't want to seriously compare European/Japanese high speed lines with dodgy American freight lines, are you?
First of all this is an AMTRAK thread so you'll have to deal with dodgy american frieght lines as basis.

I was think of a good analogy for wear and tear through steel to steel connection, and here it is;
It is the same as trying to sharpen a steel sword against a rotating grinder, the faster the rotation the faster the swords sharpens but it also means shaving down the sword so the faster the train the more rail the is shaved off and energy increases exponentially with speed.
Heat also rises with speed so the rail will become distorted easier as speed increases needing more maintenace through railgrinding shaving even more off.

All in all 20 years life cycle will be reduce dramatically as speed increases.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #789
davsot
Perro que ladra no muerde
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,243
Likes (Received): 47

there should be a JoFmo-Tri-ring thread, second thread hijacked by these two in their debate over MagLev-HSR. In fact, right now I'm having trouble figuring out which one of them is for which technology.
davsot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2009, 11:47 AM   #790
JoFMO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by davsot View Post
there should be a JoFmo-Tri-ring thread, second thread hijacked by these two in their debate over MagLev-HSR. In fact, right now I'm having trouble figuring out which one of them is for which technology.
I am sorry. I apologize and will not answer him anymore. But that is only in part because I don't want to hijack this thread. It also does not make fun to discuss with someone who constantly misquotes people by taking their comments out of context. A discussion in these forum requires a certain degree of mature behaviour and respect of other peoples arguments. I try to take everybody serious here, even when I think they are talking utter nons.... I try to correct facts or statements when I think they are wrong or unbalanced. And I hope to do it always in a fair manner without non-factual citing or misinterpreting facts.

Back to AMTRAK I suggest....
JoFMO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 04:42 AM   #791
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulbous View Post
Selective quoting will never get you very far in the rational arguement game, as shown by the ignorance of my final sentence above. This increase in costs for the infrastructure will bring the costs of steel on steel transport into the realm of maglev, for the same or lower speed than that achievable using the JR version of maglev. Therefore, if you wish for that level of investment in the steel on steel infrastructure, then any cost arguements now go out the window, and the decision between conventional rail or maglev would be based on other parameters, such as design speed, capacity, ability to travel outside the dedicated network, and so on......
The misunderstanding is entirely in your view.

There is not such thing as a "realm of the maglev" ... both "highly powered HSR" and "high performance malgev" reside only in the realm of possibilities.

the fastest Maglev in operation is the Shanghai one wich only travels at 430km (german transrapid technology has much lower top speed)... and for only 50 seconds so it's a "publicity stunt" and nothing more.

On the other hand the HSR technology is "incremental" so speeds get higher as time and technology evolve.

And as a HSR only serves it's real purpose as a "faster" rail route between two cities it's not the same as an "exclusive" route (like a maglev route would necessarily be).
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2009, 04:46 AM   #792
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Yeah yeah, maglevs can't travel faster then 500Km but conventional trains can, I get it.
JR already tested and continue testing at speeds close to 600Km with passengers aboard meaning it's their safety operation speed limit not design speed limit.
I have heard from someone on this forum that JR places a 25% margin for safety reasons so I assume that the actual design speed limit is around 770Km/h.
By the way, the present land speed record is 1216Km/h. The fastest manned rail vehicle is a manned rocket sled, that travelled at 1,017 km/h (635 mph).Unmanned rocket sleds that ride on rails have reached over 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph), equivalent to Mach 8.5.
Do I need to go on?




Oh boy, so you're claiming they do not do maintenance nor adjust the sleepers during that time as well. No wonder US have so many train accidents. And please when you make a claim at least give me some reference.
Maintenance of rails includes railgrinding that prolongs the life of rail. What they do is restore the profile and remove irregularities from worn rail track to extend its life and to improve the ride of trains using the track.

The faster you go more downforce is applied to the rails and at curves more stress is applied through centripetal force to the rail by weigh of train set multipled by square amount of speed. Is that exponential enough?
You must be hearing some voices inside your head ... no one has claimed that.

Only on some stretches of DEDICATED/SEGREGATED trackage would you need to provide for HSR rails and maintenance levels ...

Probably in the Washington-Baltimore-Philadelphia-NJersey-NYC corridor a couple of "segregated" tracks could be saved for "true" HSR usage.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2009, 11:30 PM   #793
Micrav
Live!
 
Micrav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere between Paris and Riga
Posts: 698
Likes (Received): 16

Yes, back to Topic. Also Amtrak should review its price policy ot attract more people, but this is detail. Right now, to travel America, even for tourism, it is so expensive to use train... Stations are not even ok sometimes... There is a lot of investment to do... Hold on!
Micrav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2009, 03:46 AM   #794
hoosier
Registered User
 
hoosier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,450
Likes (Received): 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by davsot View Post
When is the last time Amtrak made an expansion to a certain track or opened a new line?
Never.

Amtrak in recent years has been CUTTING routes and services. You used to be able to go from Indianapolis to Louisville and LA to Las Vegas via Amtrak, but not anymore.
__________________
R.I.P. Moke- my best bud
hoosier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2009, 04:20 AM   #795
Facial
Seeking truth from facts
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Los Angeles / San Diego
Posts: 636
Likes (Received): 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
MoDot picks 5 finalists in Amtrak naming contest
25 December 2008

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) - Online voting has started in the Name the Train Contest for Amtrak's passenger rail service from Kansas City to St. Louis.

The Missouri Department of Transportation on Wednesday opened voting on five finalists chosen from more than 8,300 name submissions. Voting runs through Jan. 23 and the winner will be announced Jan. 30.

The finalists chosen were: Missouri Rail Blazer, Missouri River Runner, River Cities Corridor, ShowMeMO and Truman Service.

Those who submitted the finalists will receive two round-trip coach tickets to any Amtrak destination in Missouri and a gift basket from one of five participating cities located on the rail line.
ShowMeMO sounds kinda cool, and a bit gangsta...
Facial no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2009, 09:33 AM   #796
Micrav
Live!
 
Micrav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere between Paris and Riga
Posts: 698
Likes (Received): 16

Vote for name of Missouri train line between Kansas City and St-Louis here, until January 23

http://www.modot.org/othertransporta...methetrain.htm
Micrav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2009, 02:39 AM   #797
davsot
Perro que ladra no muerde
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,243
Likes (Received): 47

Well, that's too bad. Obamaaaaa, do something!!! Because your Secretary of Transportation doesn't care about trains! But Biden does! Listen to him!
davsot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #798
Spam King
Make America Great Again!
 
Spam King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Polanco, Distrito Federal
Posts: 879
Likes (Received): 569

Quote:
Originally Posted by davsot View Post
Well, that's too bad. Obamaaaaa, do something!!! Because your Secretary of Transportation doesn't care about trains! But Biden does! Listen to him!
let's be realistic, america under any administration doesnt care about trains, just look at obama's infrastructure plans (over $30 billion for new highways, less than $10 billion for mass transit/trains)
__________________
In the heart of a busy metropolis skyscrapers are a vivid reminder of the constant yearning of the human spirit to rise to God


MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
Spam King no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #799
Facial
Seeking truth from facts
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Los Angeles / San Diego
Posts: 636
Likes (Received): 10

What a shame, huh?
Facial no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2009, 01:25 AM   #800
Spam King
Make America Great Again!
 
Spam King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Polanco, Distrito Federal
Posts: 879
Likes (Received): 569

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facial View Post
What a shame, huh?
yeah it is quite sad
__________________
In the heart of a busy metropolis skyscrapers are a vivid reminder of the constant yearning of the human spirit to rise to God


MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
Spam King no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
marc, rail, train

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium