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Old April 29th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #1741
Suburbanist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Why are you so against Rail being run by the Govt? The Airports & Roads are run by the Govt.
I'm against monopolistic rail operations that blends infrastructure (tracks + stations) with vehicles (train sets) operations. I accept government operating tracks and stations, but I fiercely oppose government operating trains itself. An infrastructure like a dedicate sector of HSR, once built, is somehow neutral to competition if private operators are given free access. However, once government starts running trains, all sorts of political interference begins. So you have Congressmen lobbying for a given route, local governments lobbying for late-night trains etc. etc.

Private, and private only, operation of trains is a MUST to preserve efficiency, profitability and cost-driven approach.

Imagine if the US Government operated air service directly in America. First of all, it wouldn't buy any Airbus or Embraer plane due to lobbying from Boeing. Then, cities where service is unprofitable to provide would lobby (heavily) to have "good" connections. The hub-and-spoke system would pretty much be dismantled in favor or more direct and "democratic" routing and schedule system that would not give "unfair" advantage to hub cities. Then, people would start demanding that tickets should be priced on distance, not on ability of costumers (er, taxpayers) to pay more or less. Then, yield management would be downplayed in favor of a system that didn't have so much different fares according to advance purchase.

It would kill competition, and competition (true one) is the heart of capitalism that made America a great country. "Greed" (a bad word these days) is the mother of efficiency.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 06:04 PM   #1742
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Quote:
The hub-and-spoke system would pretty much be dismantled in favor or more direct and "democratic" routing
Isn't that how Southwest works? I heard they were doing pretty well, how are the other airlines doing?
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Old April 29th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #1743
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It's exactly thanks to the state that swiss network is integrated and run with an hub&spoke structure. Trains are not airplanes.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #1744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm against monopolistic rail operations that blends infrastructure (tracks + stations) with vehicles (train sets) operations. I accept government operating tracks and stations, but I fiercely oppose government operating trains itself.
But this means investment -all risk-will be done by government (tax payers money), profit will go to private companies. It doesn't make sense. Whoever invests, deserves to get the profit.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 07:48 AM   #1745
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It's exactly thanks to the state that swiss network is integrated and run with an hub&spoke structure. Trains are not airplanes.
The Swiss network is more a "mesh" than a "hub and spoke" system. It's actually a good example of a mesh done properly.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 07:50 AM   #1746
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But this means investment -all risk-will be done by government (tax payers money), profit will go to private companies. It doesn't make sense. Whoever invests, deserves to get the profit.
A bit like the roads are at the moment right?

But the private companies invest too, so they also carry a risk, and the government profits too, as it gets usage charges.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 09:54 AM   #1747
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The Swiss network is more a "mesh" than a "hub and spoke" system. It's actually a good example of a mesh done properly.
Railways based on symmetric timetables have several hubs, but it is the same principle as of airplanes: all trains reach a certain station and stop there together, swap passengers, and start again. The only difference is that this is done every 30 or 60 minutes, and not 3 or 4 times a day.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 12:14 PM   #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Railways based on symmetric timetables have several hubs, but it is the same principle as of airplanes: all trains reach a certain station and stop there together, swap passengers, and start again. The only difference is that this is done every 30 or 60 minutes, and not 3 or 4 times a day.
You can't have true competition allocating companies to operate a given sector and requiring them to operate coordinated schedules. It would be like requiring Delta, American and Jet Blue to "coordinate" their JFK schedules, for instance

To have true competition, you need to have separate companies offering independent services. Yes, you can require them to allow multi-company ticketing, but you shouldn't force them in a state-defined timetable.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #1749
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If the train operators are smart you won't have to force them, they'll coordinate to ensure connectivity by themselves. Better connectivity will be a good thing for all parties since it optimizes through time creating better service compared with competing mode of travel like cars and/or airlines.
This can be easily handled by the states since the tracks are owned by the state so the state merely coordinate the time slots in which each operator can run on which line. This is necessary so the trains will not collide with one another on any given rail line.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #1750
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Trains are not airplanes, and competition within the market brings more problems than is solves.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 02:28 AM   #1751
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If the train operators are smart you won't have to force them, they'll coordinate to ensure connectivity by themselves. Better connectivity will be a good thing for all parties since it optimizes through time creating better service compared with competing mode of travel like cars and/or airlines.
Anti-trust authorities have to be watchful against cartel formation on such services, like "you don't put a discount train in my prime market, I don't put on yours". There MUST be true competition, fare wars etc.

Quote:
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Trains are not airplanes, and competition within the market brings more problems than is solves.
Airline pundits said the same until the 70's in Europe in regard of state-owned airlines and govt-coordinated European schedules... On long-distance and medium-distance routes, there is no reason to have not private train operation (even with state ownership of tracks). Some people seem to be dreaming of the crap days when bottom line was not the first, second, not even the third priority concern of railway companies...
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Old May 1st, 2010, 01:30 PM   #1752
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O h ... Utopia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!














Railways survive only in two conditions:

1) ultra protectionist national government heavily subsidizes it's costs ...


2) liberal free-for-all de-regulation of services (i.e. free but still a conession based system)

the second usually produces the best results ... that's what they do in switzerland and other such places (like japan or germany) ... don't know why but most services are usually provided either by the central state or by the local authorities in those places.
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Old May 3rd, 2010, 02:16 AM   #1753
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Asia and Europe get it, why can't we? A high speed bullet train could make it from NYC to Miami in 6 hours. NYC to Montreal in 2 hours.

Apart from the northeastern megapolis, our country seems to be very disconnected. Is it the people, the government..what is the reason?
Chile, Argentina and Brazil have good ones and other coutries in America too.
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Old May 3rd, 2010, 08:52 AM   #1754
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something to remember, the US moves more freight by rail than any other country. Rail service has shown to be unprofitable which is why amtrack is heavily subsidized.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 03:44 AM   #1755
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesMetroBoy View Post
Rail service has shown to be unprofitable which is why amtrack is heavily subsidized.
That is when it is slower than a car, unreliable like an airline, and old asethetics. If you check the facts, capital investment reduces subsidy like for the Keystone Corridor. Pennsylvania now subsidized about 25% or more less per passenger.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 04:41 AM   #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherchoso View Post
Chile, Argentina and Brazil have good ones and other coutries in America too.
Not in the English language they do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LosAngelesMetroBoy View Post
something to remember, the US moves more freight by rail than any other country. Rail service has shown to be unprofitable which is why amtrack is heavily subsidized.
Profitability isn't the important part, it's return on investment. Rail investment tends to induce most of its benefits through externalities.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:38 AM   #1757
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UNITED STATES | Passenger Railways

The US needed a Rail thread for all the Current & Future projects. This is a Regular Passenger Rail thread , not freight. Regular Rail is anything form 30-120mph in my book anything higher is HSR. There are a ton of projects going on across the country , whether its upgrading or expanding systems or replacing fleets.

Lets start off with maps of Current & Future System expansions.

Northeastern US

Northeast Coastal Regional Systems



Septa Regional & Urban systems



Septa Possible Future lines



MARC - Maryland Regional Rail



Virgina Railways



Future Virgina Railways



Long Island Railroad



Metro - North Railroad



New Jersey Transit Rail



Under Construction ARC Tunnel & Station

image hosted on flickr


2020 now 2030 NJT Map includes Rail , Light Rail and BRT , but the bulk of it is Rail



MBTA - Boston



Current & Future CT Rail lines



Northwestern US

Amtrak Cascades



Seattle





That's all the maps if will post now , i will collect the Midwestern & Cali maps later. I didn't want to jam it all into one post.

~Corey
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Old May 5th, 2010, 03:48 AM   #1758
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Midwestern US

Metra - Metro Chicago



Northstar Commuter line - Minneapolis



Texas

Dallas - Fort Worth

Trinity River Railway



New Mexico

Rail Runner


Utah - Front Runner



California

San Diego

Coaster & Sprinter



Los Angeles

image hosted on flickr


Northern California

Altamont Commuter Express



Caltrains




Florida




Commuter Rail systems
Daily Ridership

Seattle > 10,000
Portland > 2,000
San Fransisco > 40,000 (Cal Trains)
Los Angeles > 50,000+
San Jose > 40,000 (Cal Trains)
Salt Lake City > 4,900
Minneapolis > 3,000
Dallas > 10,000
Chicago > 312,000
Miami > 16,000+
Nashville > 900-1200
Northern Virgina > 16,000
Maryland > 32,000
Long Island > 347,600
Lower Hudson Valley > 278,700
New Jersey > 350,000+
Southeastern Pennsylvania > 147,000 +
Eastern Massachusetts > 150,000
Southern Connecticut > 60,000+
San Diego > 10,000+


Future US Commuter Rail

Atlanta
Austin
More in Eastern Massachusetts
Western Massachusetts
Charlotte
70% of Connecticut
Fort Worth
Hampton Roads
Harrisburg
Kansas City
Los Angeles
Madison
Miami
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
90% of New Jersey
More in the Lower Hudson Valley of NY
More in Providence Metro
Raleigh
San Antonio
Rogue Valley,OR
San Bernardino
San Fransisco
Tulsa
Virgina
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #1759
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Do you have any idea when they will improve the Amtrak rails from Penn station to the CT state line? I think it is utterly pathetic that a Metro North commuter train can go from NYC to Stamford CT faster than an Acela. The trains just crawl through the New Rochelle area (they do speed up to a blistering 70 mph in CT though )
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #1760
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You could also go to this website it has all future rail projects in the US (most current to if you look hard enough) and for a large part of the rest of the world. Maps to, really good maps, just remember to click them to zoom in they are well made.

http://thetransportpolitic.com/
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