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View Poll Results: Which form of HSR will own the 21st. century?
Conventional - wheels on rails 163 52.24%
Maglev - magnetic levitation 116 37.18%
Horse drawn rail cars ^_^ 33 10.58%
Voters: 312. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 3rd, 2009, 07:42 AM   #101
easyb
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Photos from the Tangshan Urban Maglev Test Track

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Originally Posted by Knuddel Knutsch View Post
Seem like china is getting serious about low speed maglevs...

Does anybody have pictures?
See

http://maglev.cn:8080/train/webArticle.do?id=90
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Old July 3rd, 2009, 07:44 AM   #102
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Also http://maglev.cn:8080/train/webArticle.do?id=88
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Old August 5th, 2009, 02:16 AM   #103
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The only problem I see with maglev is that it's an entirely new network that doesn't integrate with the existing rail network. That is, it has to be built from scratch; direct connections are either all maglev or not maglev at all; it cannot make use of existing stations (without extensive rebuilding); if a maglev line is blocked for any reason, trains cannot use existing network to bypass the blockage...

A blockage happened this summer when a freight train derailed at Toijala, a major Finnish crossing station, taking the northern station entrance out of service, thereby blocking the entire western main line some 160 km (100 miles) north of the capital. The double track line was completely blocked for a day, until one track was cleared through the station. During that time trains were diverted to the eastern main line, a detour of several hundred kilometers, causing a few hours' delay at worst. However, trains were able to run throughout the ordeal.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 07:07 PM   #104
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Check out the following news articles

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/03/news...train.fortune/ (with video)

"A single province, Guangdong, was thought at the end of 2008 to have more than 20 million unemployed workers, many of whom appeared intent on heading back home to poorer, rural provinces with nothing much to do. Little focuses minds in Beijing more than the prospect of huge numbers of idle young men. It conjures up images of social instability that could conceivably strip the Communist Party of its primary source of legitimacy: economic growth and the improving living standards it has been providing for nearly 30 years. Beijing, in other words, had a lot riding on the bet that a massive boost to infrastructure spending could ameliorate the downturn."

"a nationwide high-speed passenger rail network that, once completed, will be the largest, fastest, and most technologically sophisticated in the world."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rail-in-france

"Speaking in London last year, Guillaume Pepy, president of the SNCF (the French national rail authority) said that not building a four-track railway had been a mistake."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...eed-rail-japan

"More than 150 million people a year use the bullet train service between Tokyo and Osaka – the most popular route – while Japan Airlines (JAL) flew 3.9 million people from Tokyo to Osaka, Kobe and nearby Kansai International airports in the same period."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...l-spain-travel

"Portet is one of hundreds of thousands of travellers who have migrated from the world's busiest air shuttle, linking Madrid and Barcelona, to what is now Spain's most popular train, the high-speed AVE. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ds-city-planes

"From December the journey time between Cologne and Paris will be reduced to three hours and 15 minutes, thanks to the international high-speed Thalys train. Never before will it have been possible – either by car or by plane – to travel so swiftly between the Rhine and the Seine."
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Old August 10th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #105
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The main issue with Maglev is that its just too late. Everything is on normal rail now, unless they are going to relay all the track to maglev it aint gonna work!
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Old March 9th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
The main issue with Maglev is that its just too late. Everything is on normal rail now, unless they are going to relay all the track to maglev it aint gonna work!
Yes, there are huge conventional rail networks all over the world, but if you want high speed trains, most of the old track is useless anyways. Those high speed trains like the 300kph euroshuttle from london to paris run on it's own dedicated track for most of the jurney. And the track is kind of high tech too, every rail is welded together and then fixed onto concrete. Sure, the euroshuttle can run on old tracks at lower speed, but high speeds trains like this isn't sutible for local commuter services. you can't run at 300kph on old twisting tracks, you have to lay new track...

Maglev, just like conventional high speed trains runs on dedicated track, and mostly connect big cities(like Paris-London or Berlin-Munich) so if you want a new high speed service between two cities, you still need to build a new track. The maglev will be alot more expensive but it'll be faster too
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Old March 9th, 2010, 09:28 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby_ View Post
Yes, there are huge conventional rail networks all over the world, but if you want high speed trains, most of the old track is useless anyways. Those high speed trains like the 300kph euroshuttle from london to paris run on it's own dedicated track for most of the jurney. And the track is kind of high tech too, every rail is welded together and then fixed onto concrete.
The big advantage of conventional high speed rails is that it can use conventional tracks. That means you can use existing tracks there where it building dedicated tracks are prohibitive. It also means that you can start the system before the HSL is completed.

When the Eurostar (there is no such thing as "euroshuttle") was inaugurated there was only dedicated track from Paris to the Channel Tunnel, with a short branch to just across the Belgian border. In Belgium and the UK the trains used conventional, existing railways. Later a HSL was build most of the way to Brussel, but the high speed trains do the last 20 km on a conventional railway. The UK HSL was only recently finished. So now the Eurostar indeed does most of it's journey on dedicated track, but this was not the case when it started.

Quote:
Sure, the euroshuttle can run on old tracks at lower speed, but high speeds trains like this isn't sutible for local commuter services. you can't run at 300kph on old twisting tracks, you have to lay new track...
Actually the HSL from the Channel tunnel to London is used for commuter trains...

Quote:
Maglev, just like conventional high speed trains runs on dedicated track, and mostly connect big cities(like Paris-London or Berlin-Munich) so if you want a new high speed service between two cities, you still need to build a new track. The maglev will be alot more expensive but it'll be faster too
The problem with Maglev is that you need a new track 100% of the way. That means that you can't for example, build the cheapest 80% first, and start the service using existing track for the last 20%. It also means that you need to build new track in to cities, where new construction is very expensive.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 09:47 AM   #108
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Shanghai maglev is told to be an epic fail.
Unless cost is reduced I don't think maglev will develop. Speed difference is not that big.

I don't lnow is there is a possibility to make 16 car maglev train?
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Old March 10th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexriga View Post

I don't lnow is there is a possibility to make 16 car maglev train?
It's already being built. (Yamanashi track extension, which turns into Kanagawa-Kofu segment)
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Old March 10th, 2010, 10:48 PM   #110
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can't maglev trains have even 16 cars? I didn't think there was a limit(not that small anyways), isn't each car levitated and propelled forwads by it's own os adding more cars souldn't matter right?
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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:46 PM   #111
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We are only in the first decade of 21st century.

Is hard to see what will rule the 2050-2100 years.

For now, conventional rail (even if is not that conventional, is a little modified) make more economic sense. But because it have so manny moving parts (engines, weels) it will be limited for ultra-high-speeds.

That "epic fail" run only with 430 km/h because the track is too damn short.

With no moving parts, and longer distances between stations, it could easy in the future cruise with 600 km/h (maybe 900 km/h). Even with existing tehnology, we could cruise with 500 km/h with passengers on board (if only would have the lines ), while the conventional TGV, have a cruising speed with passengers of max. 350 km/h, and with not so much room for developement.

P.S.
Another downside for conventional trains is the power supply. It would need huge amount of energy, and the friction between the power line and the pantograph would be a big problem.

go maglev... go...
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Last edited by luci203; March 11th, 2010 at 01:07 PM.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 03:54 AM   #112
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The concept is not new. This isn't the 19th century. It is utterly foolish to invest in 'high speed RAIL trains.. in the 21st century. How stupid can Obama get..? I'd say his so-called 'advisors' are dark-agers.

http://www.smartplanet.com/business/...ed-train/9594/
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 04:20 AM   #113
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What about hybrid?Magle on new tracks but wheels incorporated to be able to enter regural tracks at the end of "maglev track"
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 04:42 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldrailfan View Post
What about hybrid?Magle on new tracks but wheels incorporated to be able to enter regural tracks at the end of "maglev track"
Waste of energy since bogies will become complete dead weight when levitated.
I believe it will be fairly easy to convert conventional tracks into JR maglevs with virtually no down time since the JR maglev loading gauge is 2.9 meters same as European loading gauge so if the foundation is paved with concrete you only need to install the side fence coils which will not obstruct traffic of conventional trains.
Just install the fences at night and once the fences are in place remove the tracks and overhead power-line and truss.
Difficulties would be platform at station and landing/take off area since the JR method only starts levitating at speeds faster than 150Km/h but I do not think it will be a problem that can't be overcome.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 08:26 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldrailfan View Post
What about hybrid?Magle on new tracks but wheels incorporated to be able to enter regural tracks at the end of "maglev track"
That is what inductrack basically proposes. It could work.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 08:34 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Waste of energy since bogies will become complete dead weight when levitated.
Levitation doesn't cost a lot of energy, and weight is thus not that important. With perfect conductors levitation does not cost any energy at all, in the real world there is of course resistance, but only a small fraction (a few %) of the energy used by a maglev is consumed by levitation. The majority is used in overcoming aerodynamic drag...

Quote:
I believe it will be fairly easy to convert conventional tracks into JR maglevs with virtually no down time since the JR maglev loading gauge is 2.9 meters same as European loading gauge so if the foundation is paved with concrete you only need to install the side fence coils which will not obstruct traffic of conventional trains.
You forget that a railway line is not a straight line going from A to B. It's a network, with a lot of branches and switches. How do you deal with them during the transition?
Your "side fences" do obstruct switches going to branch lines, that can't just be disconnected.

Quote:
Difficulties would be platform at station and landing/take off area since the JR method only starts levitating at speeds faster than 150Km/h but I do not think it will be a problem that can't be overcome.
So a Maglev needs wheels anyway. Why not make them compatible with existing track?
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 10:18 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitxofo View Post
Conventional.
MAGLEV in 22nd century!!
in Romania is 50 century!
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 11:54 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Levitation doesn't cost a lot of energy, and weight is thus not that important. With perfect conductors levitation does not cost any energy at all, in the real world there is of course resistance, but only a small fraction (a few %) of the energy used by a maglev is consumed by levitation. The majority is used in overcoming aerodynamic drag...
Auhh, what?
Lifting mass will always require force to traverse gravity. Force is also required to achieve momentum(acceleration E=1/2ma^2) so whether it is hidden or not weight will always equate to energy.


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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You forget that a railway line is not a straight line going from A to B. It's a network, with a lot of branches and switches. How do you deal with them during the transition?
Your "side fences" do obstruct switches going to branch lines, that can't just be disconnected.
Doesn't matter, have you ever heard of gates?
At slow speeds open the gate and inertia will carry the train to the designated way with tires steering the way. At high speed close the gate on a swinging hinge with coils installed and it will not be a problem.



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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So a Maglev needs wheels anyway. Why not make them compatible with existing track?
The JR system does, but then try landing steel wheels with a rim on rails at 150Km/h, it not going to be pleasant.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 12:59 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Auhh, what?
Lifting mass will always require force to traverse gravity. Force is also required to achieve momentum(acceleration E=1/2ma^2) so whether it is hidden or not weight will always equate to energy.
Lifting mass requires force. However, you are confusing force with energy. In the case of the Maglev generating that force does indeed require energy, as we don't have perfect electromagnets. But the energey needed is not a lot.
Purely from a physics point of view energy is force x distance. Lifting something with a mass m from height h1 to h2 costs an amount of energy (h2-h1)*m*g. Keeping something at a certain height does not cost any energy in a ideal world, regardless of the method used.
My table is also held up by a force. In this case it is the legs that provide the force, and all without consuming energy...
In the case of a maglev generating the needed magnetic fields costs energy because of electric resistance in the coils. The continous active adjustments to keep the maglev from being launched also need energy. The initial lifting from the track too, but that is only a few cm.
The end result is that it's not the lifting where the energy goes. The literature from the different Maglev producers confirms this.

Quote:
The JR system does, but then try landing steel wheels with a rim on rails at 150Km/h, it not going to be pleasant.
I beleive the inductrack system "takes of" and "lands" at much lower speeds, so that could be an option.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 01:58 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Lifting mass requires force. However, you are confusing force with energy. In the case of the Maglev generating that force does indeed require energy, as we don't have perfect electromagnets. But the energey needed is not a lot.
Purely from a physics point of view energy is force x distance. Lifting something with a mass m from height h1 to h2 costs an amount of energy (h2-h1)*m*g. Keeping something at a certain height does not cost any energy in a ideal world, regardless of the method used.
My table is also held up by a force. In this case it is the legs that provide the force, and all without consuming energy...
In the case of a maglev generating the needed magnetic fields costs energy because of electric resistance in the coils. The continous active adjustments to keep the maglev from being launched also need energy. The initial lifting from the track too, but that is only a few cm.
The end result is that it's not the lifting where the energy goes. The literature from the different Maglev producers confirms this.

Auhh, do you really understand what you are talking about?
Gravity is a constant force pulling you to the center so you need constant force in the opposite direction so maintaining at a certain height requires a constant amount of energy.
You also have not addressed the fact that to accelerate you need energy and the amount of energy is dictated by the amount of mass so lighter the mass the less energy is required.

The JR maglev system is not like the Transrapid system, it maintains lift through Electro-dynamic Suspension(EDS), EDS has the advantage of larger gaps than Electromagnetic Suspension (EMS), but EDS needs support wheels which are employed in low speed running, because EDS can't produce a large levitation force therefore in part utilizes a phenomenon known as wing ground effect where at a certain speed the constant air rushing underneath blows up the body like a gust of wind blowing up fallen leaves. Not enough energy to lift it completely but with EDS working together it lift and stabilizes the train at speed above 150Km/h. My complete misunderstanding, I realized that speed is the working force of EDS since induced electro-magnetic field of a coil becomes stronger as the source electro-magnetic field passes as speed increases therefore as the train moves faster the induced levitating electro-magnetic field becomes stronger.

As for landing it will land at around the same speed but may not land directly onto the rail due to the instability in electro-magnetic field causing derailment.

Last edited by SamuraiBlue; November 3rd, 2010 at 02:46 PM.
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