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Old July 1st, 2005, 08:03 PM   #101
avissers
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According to the annual U.S. Census figures, which estimate population each July, Milwaukee's population in 2004 was 583,624, down nearly 3,600 residents from the same time in 2003.

If you look at the Demographic Services Center of the Wisconsin Department of Administration numbers, it lists the estimates as of 1/1/03 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 595,245 losing 1,729 residents from the 2000 Census
Milwaukee, County - 941,301 adding 1,137 residents from the 2000 Census

So it really goes by who you follow and think is more accurate. In this instance it looks like there is about a 8,000 +/- difference between the U.S. Census estimate and the Wisconsin DOA estimate. That's a significant oops to me. I mean, I would notice if $8,000 was missing out of my bank account.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 08:39 PM   #102
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Coincidentally, we were having the same discussion about Census Bureau vs. Wisconsin Dept. of Admin. esitimates the other day in the Detroit vs. Milwaukee thread just a few days ago, before the latest estimates from the Census were released. Of course, the discrepancies are due to using different criteria, calculations, and methodologies. I would tend to think the WisDOA's estimates are more accurate because they are able to keep a better "pulse on Milwaukee," (and Wisconsin) so to speak, than the Census Bureau.

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Originally Posted by avissers
If you look at the Demographic Services Center of the Wisconsin Department of Administration numbers, it lists the estimates as of 1/1/03 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 595,245 losing 1,729 residents from the 2000 Census
Milwaukee, County - 941,301 adding 1,137 residents from the 2000 Census
And the estimates as of 1/1/04 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 593,920
Milwaukee, County - 939,358

The WisDOA usually releases its population estimates sometime around August/September, so we should be hearing new figures from them in a few weeks.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 08:52 PM   #103
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The news about Marcus Corp. taking over the proposed theater operations at PabstCity is interesting, especially considering they were so uninterested in it before. It seems to be quite a remarkable coincidence that all of a sudden they changed their minds, in the midst of all the public controversey, and right before City leaders are scheduled to make a decision on the TIF that would supposedly make or break the whole project. On the plus side, it is good that Marcus finally wised-up and decided as a locally-based company that it would support a hometown downtown theater. On the minus side, well, its still has all the same minuses as we discussed before.
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Old July 1st, 2005, 11:33 PM   #104
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Hey Neph, I wouldn't say that you're being pessimistic at all. I definitely agree that job creation and retention is really important to get the city and area back on that right track. That's one reason why I agree with Markitect that the valley should be geared mainly towards industry/light manufacturing instead of primarily commercial because of the large number of jobs that it would create. I think that education needs to improve a lot as well and I don't really know how one would go about starting to fix the MPS system...
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Old July 1st, 2005, 11:55 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markitect
The news about Marcus Corp. taking over the proposed theater operations at PabstCity is interesting, especially considering they were so uninterested in it before. It seems to be quite a remarkable coincidence that all of a sudden they changed their minds, in the midst of all the public controversey, and right before City leaders are scheduled to make a decision on the TIF that would supposedly make or break the whole project.
You beat me to it. I'm also miffed by the fact that the Pittsburgh-based company, whose head honcho seemed so excited about the project that I can remember his enthusiasm months after reading a j-s article, dropped out so quietly.

So after decades of blowing off the downtown market, Marcus is on board? Okaaaaaay.

Someone kill it. Just kill it. I'd rather have the buildings fall over on their own in 20 years than have to admit that the city let more than two thirds of the complex be torn down for a Marcus and a House of Blues in the middle of nowhere. I know it sounds nimby, but seriously...there comes a time when a promising project just goes sour, and you have to stop pining for what might have been and start trying to save what you already have. Keep the buildings until there's a competent developer willing to turn Pabst into a complex that actually works. Right now the cost is just too high.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 12:54 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CG5
You beat me to it. I'm also miffed by the fact that the Pittsburgh-based company, whose head honcho seemed so excited about the project that I can remember his enthusiasm months after reading a j-s article, dropped out so quietly.

So after decades of blowing off the downtown market, Marcus is on board? Okaaaaaay.
The Pittsburgh-based company (Jenco Cinemas) did not actually "drop out" of the project; they were replaced via a substitution clause in the agreement they had with PC developers. Jenco had always been interested in doing the movie theater, and they believed in it, but PC developers decided to drop them after Marcus expressed an interest.

Marcus' newfound interest for a PabstCity theater (after initially rejecting the idea when it originally came up) was based on the results of the market study they were conducting. No doubt, their interest was piqued even more when PC developers decided to downsize the theater after the consultant's report suggested 16 screens was overkill. Another thing that helped the guys at Marcus change their minds was the extent to which the City has been committed to moving forward with PabstCity.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 01:15 AM   #107
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Pabst City

Basically, I think it is now or never for Pabst City. The longer they/we wait, the buildings will more than likely continue to deteriorate to the point where they will not be able to be renovated or saved. Losing a "BIG" part of Milwaukee history may be a bigger travesty than PC itself.

Maybe it is good that a local company is expressing interest, in Marcus. That may be signs that PC will actually become a reality and we won't have to keep talking about the potential problems if it were to become a reality and start talking about the exisiting problems and what if's when it opens (J/K - I hope)...

I understand the negative issues and the amount that the City has to put up to help the developers, but has anyone else come forward and said they can do this without the extra help??? I know there is probably an exclusive clause built in for WISPARK to develop this area - but what our the other options? What would we like to see if not what they proposed? I'd be interested to get others opinions on that question. I mean, we need additional retail, commercial oppurtunities in the downtown area. Industrial will not fit in this area. So what?

Saving some history may be better than none. Besides rich condo people need to have a place to go see a movie and catch some band that they could see at the Rave. But why go there???

Last edited by avissers; July 2nd, 2005 at 01:32 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 05:00 AM   #108
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Thanks for clarifying that, Markitect. I just remember the Jenco guy who was quoted in the paper (was he the CEO? I can't remember his title) sounding really optimistic...he was excited about entering the market. And my main problem with Marcus taking over is that it's yet another sign of the insular market in this area. It seems like major retailers/entertainment venues/etc. rarely enter the market...Jenco giving Marcus some competition would have been nice. Now it's just the same old thing. And yes, a multiplex is a multiplex is a multiplex. They're all run by megachains. Still, it was symbolic of a major company from another area showing interest in Milwaukee, which was good to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avissers
What would we like to see if not what they proposed?
I would like to see them propose not to tear the complex apart to such an extent that it actually loses its historical status. They're keeping a whopping 8 out of 28 buildings. And they're probably going to clean the buildings they're keeping to thei point where the whole thing looks like Milwaukee: The Disney Experience.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 06:33 AM   #109
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I would also like to see them retain more than 8 out of 28 buildings (as would everyone else I'm sure). Personally, I feel that it would make more sense making PabstCity mainly offices and residential. It would be nice to see more affordable housing there but I suppose that the high costs of renovation wouldn't allow that. Being a student at Marquette, I'd like to say that our students would put some dollars into commercial/entertainment at PabstCity but I can't speak for everyone else that goes there and it still wouldn't be enough to support such a major endeavor. There wouldn't be anything wrong with some stuff geared towards entertainment but certainly not on the level that they envision.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 07:45 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CG5
And my main problem with Marcus taking over is that it's yet another sign of the insular market in this area. It seems like major retailers/entertainment venues/etc. rarely enter the market...Jenco giving Marcus some competition would have been nice. Now it's just the same old thing. And yes, a multiplex is a multiplex is a multiplex. They're all run by megachains. Still, it was symbolic of a major company from another area showing interest in Milwaukee, which was good to see.
Yeah, hear ya on the new competition angle.

Even better would have been the combination cineplex/hotel tower, operated by some newcommer, on the empty lot at 4th and Wisconsin--right across from the Marcus-operated Hilton...that would have been a nice one-two punch at Marcus, right on their home turf!

And I still think places along Wisconsin Avenue and Water Street/RiverWalk would be better for some of the entertainment-oriented uses proposed for PabstCity like the movie theater (regardless of Marcus Corp. now on board for PC) and House of Blues.

I've mentioned before about how I'd rather see PabstCity developed more toward office, residential, and neighborhood retail use. Some of the Milwaukee County offices would make a great anchor tenant. We know County Exec. Walker has mentioned the idea. Not only is PC close enough to the rest of the main County buildings, but it would be a good place to relocate the office space contained within the crumbling Courthouse Annex which Walker wants to demolish. Another piece falls into the puzzle...

A few months ago there was an article mentioning how MATC was looking into the idea of perhaps starting some student housing. MATC is right across the street from PC. There was also another atcile a while back about a developer who was interested in convertin some older industrial buildings in the Third Ward into off-campus student housing that could be shared among the different universities. PabstCity could also be an ideal location for such an endeavor, especially with Marquette University just a few blocks away. Another puzzle piece...

Mix in some non-student housing in there as well, which could be either upscale condo type stuff or perhaps even something more affordable, yet good quality, for lower-income households (like the stuff Gorman has done with various former industrial and commerical buildings around town).

All those offices and residences are a built in demand for neighborhood-oriented retail and restaurants. This could range from simple stuff lke laundromats/dry cleaners, coffee shops, specialty retailers, grocery/convenience stores to a couple of "destination" type places as well, like the brewpub/beer garden/Hofbrauhaus, plus the Museum of Beer and Brewing.

Some of those ideas probably are doable in some of those old buildings--not without major alterations, but perhaps at least more of the complex could be retained. And again, some of the buildings aren't all that historically or architecturally significant, so those would still come down and be replaced with something else. Even the concrete grain silos could be reused, with a little creativity and good planning (such buildings have been converted into new uses in other cities--there's a hotel in Akron, Ohio that was built into an old grain silo...which was also an idea that was kicked around for the old Schlitz/Pillsbury silos that stood up in Glendale (only that idea was for condos) before that was demolished).

No doubt some of this stuff is a bit out-of-the-box thinking, or perceived as "too risky," but I think they offer something a little bit better than the Super Happy Fun Carnival Land place currently envisioned for PabstCity.

Again, I'll make reference to the vision outlined on the old http://www.brewcity.net/index1.html website, which was used by Haertel and friends, as the original pitch for what has become PabstCity. They promoted that vision to attract other investors and developers (ones with more money and experience to join them in a partnership) to the project. It was somewhat crude and vague, but it wasn't theme parkish either.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:37 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markitect
but I think they offer something a little bit better than the Super Happy Fun Carnival Land place currently envisioned for PabstCity.
I always look forward to the times when you bust out that sense of humor we all know you have. This had me laughing for a good solid minute.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 04:58 PM   #112
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Is it just me or aren't they proposing offices, housing, retail as part of Pabst City and not just the entertainment venues that are mainly discussed here???

It's not like they have set the prices of the condo's yet or apartments yet so it doesn't rule out any income bracket at this point, or signed any office tenants, - so all the possibilities are still out there for some of these things to happen.

The major tenants like Sega, HOB, and the Marcus are needed to get the other parts to fall into place. If someone renovated an older building into condos right in the heart of where PC is right now, how successful would it be with alsmot nothing around it? Probably not very.

Just a thought.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 07:51 PM   #113
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After reading this forum for about four months, I can finally agree with CG5 and Markitect, the term "insular" is very apt, having one firm control the hotel business in Milwaukee with the ownership of three major hotels is not good, and I, too, would like to see some competition at either the 4th & Wisconsin site, or the Lake Point Tower if that ever develops. The same is true for the cinema busines, I understand that right now, they control 70% of this business in the metro area.

As for PC, I suppose you could take the position that doing something is better than having the buildings rot, but it appears to me the location is not right for this kind of venue, the area is sort of insulated from downtown, you would almost have to have some form of mass transit to pick up the convention and other downtown business. I think it would be a lot better to have a complex like the old Schlitz area was developed into, with the addition of condos.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 08:56 PM   #114
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Great Thoughts

Markitect. I really wish the civic leadership would recognize the error in facilitating the spreading of retail, entertainment and cultural functions all over the downtown and nearby neighborhoods instead of integrating them in already semi developed retail or entertainment districts that are already fixtures in the developing urban fabric of the cbd. There is no substitution for the synergies created by agglomerating mutually beneficial functions next to each other. Instead of creating competing destinations we should be doing everything we can to augment the existing ones. As a sidenote, I'd be really interested in knowing what tipped the scales for Marcus to decide to join the project. They've been pretty outspoken on their criticism of a downtown cinema in the past. Given their presence in the market they had to have researched the viability of a downtown cinema long before PC ever came up.
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Old July 2nd, 2005, 10:40 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avissers
Is it just me or aren't they proposing offices, housing, retail as part of Pabst City and not just the entertainment venues that are mainly discussed here???

It's not like they have set the prices of the condo's yet or apartments yet so it doesn't rule out any income bracket at this point, or signed any office tenants, - so all the possibilities are still out there for some of these things to happen.
Yes, there are offices and residential components being developed for PabstCity, and yeah, some of the things others of us here have brought up as far as non-entertainment uses probably will become reality. But we rarely hear about them as they are always overshadowed by the more controversial entertainment stuff.

Still, it woud be nice to know more details about those other components, other than the bullet point list of square footages that are mentioned for them every once in a while. Do the developers have some office tenants lined up on their super secret list of tenants? Are they looking at developing office space for large firms, or something more in line for several smaller firms, professional offices, etc?

I brought up the idea of moving some of the County office there because it's been mentioned in the newspapers before...and a move like that seems like a no-brainer to me, killing several birds with one stone (the need for consolidating government office space, boosting up a major downtown development by being a major anchor tenant with long-range staying power, the desire to vacate/demolish the ailing Courthouse Annex, there was also some talk a while back about the Coutny vacating and/or rebuilding one of its buildings on MacArthur Square...all of that could be tied into PabstCity in some way).

Quote:
The major tenants like Sega, HOB, and the Marcus are needed to get the other parts to fall into place. If someone renovated an older building into condos right in the heart of where PC is right now, how successful would it be with alsmot nothing around it? Probably not very.

Just a thought.
How many renovated older buildings around town have been successful without being immediately adjacent to a multi-screen movie theater, concert venue, or theme restaurants?
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 01:06 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markitect
How many renovated older buildings around town have been successful without being immediately adjacent to a multi-screen movie theater, concert venue, or theme restaurants?
I understand your point, but the focus is on PC not other parts of town.

Why is the Third Ward considered successful? Because the condo development started first and then small artist studios, interesting restaurant and bar choices, unique retail store and what not found there way there. A new way of living was introduced that much of the Milwaukee area was not used to having the choice of.

I'm sure it was met with opposition in its initial redevelopment stages because you were taking an area away that served as a heavy manufacturing district in the river and lake region near downtown and the port. Take that away and you never get it back because who wants to live right next to a factory? But that success in the 3rd Ward and now in the 5th Ward, it didn't happen over night.

And it may have even looked detached from downtown when redevelopment first started there. Who wants to go to the Ale House - it's so detached from downtown by 794? But with the combination of residents and traffic from other business and offices in the area, it found probably even more traffic generated.

If you, as a developer, have an oppurtunity to kick start a development with 3 major entertainment venues, the other uses will more than likely follow (mainly retail and residential first) but it isn't guaranteed. Office space being difficult to sell or lease is always a weird market.

Working in the field, it is very nice to support things you know every detail about, but that doesn't always happen and the elected officials need to take a stand one way or the other and hope for the best with all of the information they have. If they want more information, they can ask for it.

We (the city I work for) just put a lot of financial backing into a huge retail/office/hotel and conference center as the gateway to our city. There is about 300,000 square feet of office space that is planned and were no announced tenants prior to approval. Once the project was approved, even with the soft office market we have, 100,000 square feet was pre-leased a day after the project. I'm not saying that's how it will happen in the PC case. But sometimes, it does. Does that make it any more right or wrong - no. Any less right or wrong - no.

So - I guess my thought is go for it Milwaukee. In 30 years it may look like the best decision ever. Or not...

Last edited by avissers; July 3rd, 2005 at 06:06 PM.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 05:17 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avissers
So - I guess my thought is go for it Milwaukee. In 30 years it may look like the best decision ever. Or not...
Ha ha, this is such a great statement I can't let it go without being seen.

This is what I've been saying for the last 4 or 5 years! The attitudes of the people of Milwaukee are changing. What we see now isn't the "Milwaukee Sucks" mentality but the "Lets go for it mentality" The "Milwaukee Sucks": mentality is still here but it is steadily being washed away by optimism and what's more important, the evidence of that optimism!

Let me parrot that remark: go for it Milwaukee!
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM   #118
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[QUOTE=Markitect]Yeah, hear ya on the new competition angle.

And I still think places along Wisconsin Avenue and Water Street/RiverWalk would be better for some of the entertainment-oriented uses proposed for PabstCity like the movie theater (regardless of Marcus Corp. now on board for PC) and House of Blues.

I've mentioned before about how I'd rather see PabstCity developed more toward office, residential, and neighborhood retail use. Some of the Milwaukee County offices would make a great anchor tenant. We know County Exec. Walker has mentioned the idea. Not only is PC close enough to the rest of the main County buildings, but it would be a good place to relocate the office space contained within the crumbling Courthouse Annex which Walker wants to demolish. Another piece falls into the puzzle...


Thank you. My thoughts exactly. I walked around the Marquette Interchange and PC area today. A couple thoughts. I haven't been around around PC in a while, and I kind forgot what the area looks like, and what's around. I was amazed because the area was worse than I had pictured in my mind. It is completely dead. There is zero retail, restaurantes, or housing down there. All it basically is MATC and county buildings. It just confirms my feelings that the PC site would be best used for office, residential, and parking. I don't see why Wispark wouldn't be happy doing that type of development. I bet the city would give them TIF in a second if they pitched a less risky development that would have affordable housing, parking, and jobs from office development. For the neighbors PC has (the county buildings, MATC, and a freeway) a much less risky development makes more sense. I'm all for Sega, downtown theatre, and HOB, but put them somewhere I want to go. As a resident of the city, I want more bars, clubs, restaurantes, in the places I go and like, such as Milwaukee St, North, Water St, third/fifth ward. There is plenty of room to add more places in those areas. I don't want to go to the fringe of downtown, in an artificial Super Happy Fun Carnival Land, as you aptly put it. Another thought was that the court house annex REALLY is crumbling, and has to go. When you look st closely, you see how bad it looks. I say put the replacement ramp in PC. Finally, the Interchange is making progress. Kilbourne exit is open again and the Wells street bridge is now open. It also looks like they will be painting all the decorated concrete in a beige/tan type of color. It looks acceptable, better than what we had, but not going to blow away anyone.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 03:23 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlerontheruf
oh wait, damn I just read the last page of this thread.


407, I gotta echo citygawd's sentiments on this one...you're a throwback to the BrewCity days. And dass not a good thing. But I think the eloquent CG5 said it best. In fact, just reread his post. 10 times.
You fruit!
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Old July 4th, 2005, 04:53 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avissers
Why is the Third Ward considered successful? Because the condo development started first and then small artist studios, interesting restaurant and bar choices, unique retail store and what not found there way there. A new way of living was introduced that much of the Milwaukee area was not used to having the choice of.

I'm sure it was met with opposition in its initial redevelopment stages because you were taking an area away that served as a heavy manufacturing district in the river and lake region near downtown and the port. Take that away and you never get it back because who wants to live right next to a factory? But that success in the 3rd Ward and now in the 5th Ward, it didn't happen over night.
Of course the success of the Third Ward didn't happen over night...it was a gradual, organic process--and completely opposite of PabstCity. By the way, your stages of evolution are a bit mixed up: the modest artist lofts and studios came along first (with a boost from the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design which decided to open up its school there), much of which was done by individual building owners and small-time developers, all of it coexisting side-by-side with operating warehouses and factories. Then came some of the smaller office, restaurants, and retail stuff. And then after that, in came the big-name devlopers with the high-end condo and retail conversions and new construction projects occupying entire blocks. So there is a major difference between what happened to the Third Ward, and is currently happening to Walker's Point (I refuse to use the characterless, unoriginal "Fifth Ward" label for that neighborhood!) and what is proposed to happen with PabstCity.

Another big difference between the two is that the Third Ward was very much a piecemeal effort--many different projects, going on at different times, done by different people. PabstCity is completely obviously completely opposite--a mega-project, on a mega-site, from a collaboration between mega-developers. That's why, when we were talking about PabstCity a few weeks back, I mentioned taking a look at how the Blatz and Schlitz breweries were revitalized. They make a better comparison for PC than the Third Ward, because they share many of the same basic mega-characteristics.
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