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Old July 3rd, 2005, 03:22 PM   #41
Britannia
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Off all the topics people use to disgard Dubai as being a real major city, you guys went on the amount of car parks it has and how much cars there are. People are just becoming more and more desperate to try to prove dubai isnt going to be as great as it will be. Sad!!

Public Transportation in Dubai my A$$, how the hell is going to wait in the 45 c sun during summer for the bus to come. And im sure hell ppl wont walk to the train station in this heat either. Developed countries come to developing countries and try to lecture them on how to conserve and help fight global warming, we wouldnt have global wraming if u guys hadnt fuc&ed up the planet in the first place.
There has been civilization in the Middle East for just about longer than any other part of the world. You built the world's first cities, invented many of the principle technologies and ideas that built modern civilization... so why is it only now that you need an air-conditioned car to get about? Was it not as hot before the car was invented?

The UAE are perfectly entitled to develop, as are any other nation, but why is there a need to develop into a Western nation? Western styles of architecture (i.e. glass skyscrapers) and Western modes of transport (i.e the car) are designed for Western climates, not the sort of climate you have in Dubai... so why copy it? Middle Eastern architecture developed to cope with the heat a long time ago, but now you're scrapping all that and replacing it with a completely alien and inefficient way of building and living. My point wasn't that Dubai shouldn't be allowed to develop (although I detest the argument that just because developed nations polluted the world in ignorance, developing nations should be allowed to do it in full knowledge of its effects), but simply that it has the chance to develop in a way that is sustainable and will help the environment... yet you're choosing not to, which is a great shame. Dubai may well develop into an impressive and unique city on the face of it, but fundamentally it'll just be a US city in disguise, and at some point in the not-too-distant future you'll get as polluted and congested as London, and you'll be forced to try and fix all the mistakes you're making today.

Now that's sad.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 04:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia
There has been civilization in the Middle East for just about longer than any other part of the world. You built the world's first cities, invented many of the principle technologies and ideas that built modern civilization... so why is it only now that you need an air-conditioned car to get about? Was it not as hot before the car was invented?

The UAE are perfectly entitled to develop, as are any other nation, but why is there a need to develop into a Western nation? Western styles of architecture (i.e. glass skyscrapers) and Western modes of transport (i.e the car) are designed for Western climates, not the sort of climate you have in Dubai... so why copy it? Middle Eastern architecture developed to cope with the heat a long time ago, but now you're scrapping all that and replacing it with a completely alien and inefficient way of building and living. My point wasn't that Dubai shouldn't be allowed to develop (although I detest the argument that just because developed nations polluted the world in ignorance, developing nations should be allowed to do it in full knowledge of its effects), but simply that it has the chance to develop in a way that is sustainable and will help the environment... yet you're choosing not to, which is a great shame. Dubai may well develop into an impressive and unique city on the face of it, but fundamentally it'll just be a US city in disguise, and at some point in the not-too-distant future you'll get as polluted and congested as London, and you'll be forced to try and fix all the mistakes you're making today.

Now that's sad.

Western minds..can't stand underdog nations progressing even if it means westernizing. Now that's sad...
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 04:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia
There has been civilization in the Middle East for just about longer than any other part of the world. You built the world's first cities, invented many of the principle technologies and ideas that built modern civilization... so why is it only now that you need an air-conditioned car to get about? Was it not as hot before the car was invented?

The UAE are perfectly entitled to develop, as are any other nation, but why is there a need to develop into a Western nation? Western styles of architecture (i.e. glass skyscrapers) and Western modes of transport (i.e the car) are designed for Western climates, not the sort of climate you have in Dubai... so why copy it? Middle Eastern architecture developed to cope with the heat a long time ago, but now you're scrapping all that and replacing it with a completely alien and inefficient way of building and living. My point wasn't that Dubai shouldn't be allowed to develop (although I detest the argument that just because developed nations polluted the world in ignorance, developing nations should be allowed to do it in full knowledge of its effects), but simply that it has the chance to develop in a way that is sustainable and will help the environment... yet you're choosing not to, which is a great shame. Dubai may well develop into an impressive and unique city on the face of it, but fundamentally it'll just be a US city in disguise, and at some point in the not-too-distant future you'll get as polluted and congested as London, and you'll be forced to try and fix all the mistakes you're making today.

Now that's sad.
Great logic, so cos they used camels to get around in old time they should still use them. Thats like saying you walked on all fours so get back there. And whats this crap about western styles of architecture and transport not suited to Dubai? does that mean that no where in a hat climete (australis included along with the desert state in the US etc) should not use cars or have glass skyscrapers?? its like saying the chinees invested gunpower so therefore its an eastern design suited for the east and the west shoulded use it.
Man you logic is so fu#der up, people like you scare me
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 05:36 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Qatar4Ever
So i should drive my 4x4 to the train station. Then grab a cab once i get to my destantion, coz im also not walking in 50c heat from the station to my office. Maybe take a bike with me. That why no need for cars, ill be riding my bike, in my deshdasha, to the train station and then to work.
I dont see why people cant walk in the heat, as long as it is less than a 15-20 min walk; there is no reason not too. other than being lazy.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:38 PM   #45
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You're taking my comments entirely the wrong way... I'm not anti 'underdog' nations at all, what I'm saying is that it's a shame Dubai is copying the Western model and not finding its own path or being a little more imaginative in the way it's developing. Developing nations shouldn't be so hasty to copy the west, because we certainly didn't get it right... hence the damage we now all realise has been done to the environment. Developing nations have the chance to avoid those mistakes and build economies that are more sustainable (and therefore more efficient), but in most cases they're just making the same mistakes that western nations made several decades ago.

It's a simple fact that glass doesn't perform as well in hot climates and requires an excessive amount of artificial heating to compensate, yet a lot of the new towers in Dubai are entirely clad in glass. Architects should be using designs that take advantage of natural shade or maybe utilise solar cells to generate the energy required to keep the buildings cool... there are many ways to do it, but Dubai is simply relying on expensive and damaging air-con systems to compensate for the heat. There's nothing ****ed up about that and I'm not quite sure why you think I'm being offensive... I'm advocating a way for countries like the UAE to develop a better economy that would give them an advantage over the west, not saying I don't want them to develop at all.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:48 PM   #46
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lol that thread is about DIFC guys. lol.
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Old July 3rd, 2005, 07:56 PM   #47
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WESTERNS.........WESTERN MINDS .............. THEY SUCK I SWEARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old July 4th, 2005, 06:27 AM   #48
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veering off topic, are we???

hahahha!!! look at how far this has gone off topic.. Although there has been some damn good points being brought up by lots of people... And by the way, not ALL western minds think the exact same..
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Old July 4th, 2005, 08:20 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia
You're taking my comments entirely the wrong way... I'm not anti 'underdog' nations at all, what I'm saying is that it's a shame Dubai is copying the Western model and not finding its own path or being a little more imaginative in the way it's developing. Developing nations shouldn't be so hasty to copy the west, because we certainly didn't get it right... hence the damage we now all realise has been done to the environment. Developing nations have the chance to avoid those mistakes and build economies that are more sustainable (and therefore more efficient), but in most cases they're just making the same mistakes that western nations made several decades ago.

It's a simple fact that glass doesn't perform as well in hot climates and requires an excessive amount of artificial heating to compensate, yet a lot of the new towers in Dubai are entirely clad in glass. Architects should be using designs that take advantage of natural shade or maybe utilise solar cells to generate the energy required to keep the buildings cool... there are many ways to do it, but Dubai is simply relying on expensive and damaging air-con systems to compensate for the heat. There's nothing ****ed up about that and I'm not quite sure why you think I'm being offensive... I'm advocating a way for countries like the UAE to develop a better economy that would give them an advantage over the west, not saying I don't want them to develop at all.
your complete lack of understanding of architecture is clearly evident here. The reflective glass is actually double glazed with a argon gas infill, This reduces the transfer of ambient heat from the first pane to the second and thereby reducing the A/C costs.Secondly its impractical to have sun protection on a 50 story tower that is a corporte statement as well as being an archietctual masterpiece. Dont see too many "green" buildings around anywhere these days esspecially high rises. Added to this all towers run district cooling thereby reducing the overall power consupmtion needed for the same amount of A/C but not in localized plant.
Both these are in play at DIFC as well as numerous "good design" practices which are done to improve the working enviroment of the buildings population and reduce the impact on the enviroment.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 03:23 PM   #50
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I understand architecture but I didn't know those features were used on some of the new towers, which is a positive thing and I apologise for not picking that up. Maybe you can enlighten me - what are the requirements in Dubai for energy? Are there targets for renewable resources that new developments have to meet? But glass still isn't the best material for extreme heat and I don't agree that towers can't be corporate statements or architectural masterpieces if they have sun protection (i.e. Riyadh's Al Faisaliah tower), but what I was thinking of more was one of the most recognisable corporate buildings in the Middle East... the National Commercial Bank in Jeddah by SOM, which is designed specifically for that environment. Also look at Ken Yeang's towers in Malaysia, which have a very specific response to the local environment yet still manage striking architecture. Don't you think it would be nice to see architects respond to the environment more like this, so that Dubai will develop a distinct skyline and character, rather than simply more Western-style towers?

There's also still the point that if all employees are driving to work, any slight reduction in energy consumption resulting from a high-performance facade is fairly meaningless.

The same point could apply to most buildings and cities across the world... the reason I'm making it in relation to Dubai is because it's the only city that is essentially building itself from scratch, so it's a great shame if it isn't leading the way in these matters and is simply recreating the mistakes that all other big cities have made.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 10:49 PM   #51
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back to DIFC please.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 12:03 PM   #52
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all of you sound foolish for continuing
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Old July 5th, 2005, 10:29 PM   #53
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all of you sound foolish for continuing
Why, for having a discussion on a forum? I didn't know we weren't supposed to do that. God forbid we say anything more than the usual 'wow' or 'that looks nice, any more renders?'...
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Old July 5th, 2005, 11:25 PM   #54
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but you are supposed to find the appropiate place in the forum for a discussion.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 11:34 PM   #55
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Nice pics!!!
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Old July 6th, 2005, 06:00 AM   #56
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off topic for this thread: i have to say this but every dubai-related thread is full of posts from forumers in europe and north-am who do nothing but hate on dubai ... face it folks ... we're all jealous. dubai is doing what any major city in the 'developed' world would give their left *(pick a piece of anatomy)* for. we only wish our cities were sprouting developments of both the quantity and quality that we are seeing in dubai. hats off to dubai.

on topic for this thread: looks pretty cool. comes across to me as essentially a grandiose version of an urban form pioneered in such developments as the crystal city complex in the virginian exurbs of DC. there you see the submerged shopping mall (in the washingtonian instance integrated with a METRO station and copious amounts of subterranean parking) topped by numerous office and residential towers surmounted by freeways and boulevards. but where crystal city is a cool but admittedly dreary sprawl of depressing 70s speculative boxes, the complex in dubai seems positively luxurious and the buildings, while admittedly derivative (but hey that can be a good thing in times like this), are individually buildings that any city would be proud to have in their skyline and collectively i'm certain that we'll be astounded by a handsome urban composition.

in summation: nice complex. an attempt at perfecting an existing building form. building facades and compositions reminding me of how a lady with more money than fashion sense will wear couture for couture's sake and be damned with whether or not her style is at all a reflection of her personality (not to mention good taste). yet, perhaps this is a reflection of the collective dubai personality ... in which case we can all draw our own conclusions but i personally dont feel that is the case. what will make or break this complex in my opinion will be the detailing ... if the attention to detail on the micro scale matches that on the macro scale then this will be awesome.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 08:20 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Britannia
Why, for having a discussion on a forum? I didn't know we weren't supposed to do that. God forbid we say anything more than the usual 'wow' or 'that looks nice, any more renders?'...
I agree Britania, we all should be critical in a possitive sort of way. Healthy debate is good for this forum as well as gets people thinking possibly along a different path.
Just one thing to remember, this is the hgeart of a new financial centre as in the 5th of the big stock exchanges (NY/London/DIFC/HK/Tokyo) , now dont eveny one get excited cos thier city was left out, this is the logic os establishing a major trading centre in dubai.
the world trades mon-friday, dubai trades sat and sun as our day off is friday therefore you have a 7 day trading world. Its also centrally located between HK and London, adding a trade before time reaches London on a HK trading day.
And one of the most important issues is that its central to 3 billion people (with in 4 hrs of Dubai) who percapta range for the worlds ricjhest (think the GCC and other perto rich arab states, to masses of middle class in India etc)

Apart from that this precinct is a finacial services driven development with a bit of residentail, and hospitallity and a below grade retail area, but primarially its a commercial development in the financial sector and as such the architecture will reflect high finace and will deffinatly have a WOW factor to it.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 11:49 PM   #58
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off topic for this thread: i have to say this but every dubai-related thread is full of posts from forumers in europe and north-am who do nothing but hate on dubai ... face it folks ... we're all jealous. dubai is doing what any major city in the 'developed' world would give their left *(pick a piece of anatomy)* for. we only wish our cities were sprouting developments of both the quantity and quality that we are seeing in dubai. hats off to dubai.
Well actually no... at the risk of being off-topic again, I'm not jealous at all. Individually some of the proposed towers are nice, but I can't imagine that the end result will be the kind of place I'd like to live or visit. The numbers are impressive and all credit to Dubai for having the balls to do what its doing, but in all honesty I neither hate nor envy Dubai. It reminds me too much of Las Vegas... more like a grand theme park than a city. The renaissance going on in Berlin is, to me, a far more impressive feat... they're building a truly beautiful and fascinating city, with architecture that suits the city and is supremely competent without needing to shout about it. Granted the two cities have wildly different histories and needs, but that kind of approach to development impresses me far more than Dubai's general showmanship. I can see why they're doing it and I wish them luck in establishing Dubai as a trading hub, but for me it risks ending up like all the other hot-house cities... Shanghai, Bangkok, Guangzhou, Shenzhen etc. Tall skylines, but they just look like all the character has been sucked out of them. I hope Dubai works, I really do, but I'm doubtful.

In terms of DIFC, none of the architecture matches so the end result will probably be a collection of nice buildings that don't really work at all well together. The landscaping looks great, but who'll use it if everyone travels there by car then goes shopping underground? Impressive scale, undoubtedly, and some decent individual towers, but overall I don't think it looks that great. Sorry if that's not what I'm supposed to say, but a post on such a huge scheme is wasted if nobody raises any challenging points or questions.
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Old July 9th, 2005, 11:31 AM   #59
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I would really like to go back and reply to each one of you individually but i just got bored from reading the essay-like posts. so ill try to keep mind short.

Britannia u have no logic whatsoever, at all !! You tried to make connections but the more you talked the more it appeared to people you know less. To touch on a few points, on the eastern coasts on the gulf region there were never that great civilizations or cities. It was always small fishing villages. The cities your talking about are the northern part of the mideast, where the weather is cooler. And dubai adapting western way of transport and all that crap and they should developed their own way. Seriously man !! What were you going on about !?!?! And plz be critical, we all love, I for one think the DIFC is rubbish and have expressed my opinion. But i wasnt critical in saying dubai should develop its own mode of transportation thats stupied.



As for those who still insist that walking should be an option and cut the use of cars. I want u to come over. Ill take a picture of you then ill push u out the door and keep you under the wonderful sun for 15-20 mn. Ill then post all ur picture and let the forumers decide on whether walking to ur office each morning is a good option.

Clearly most ppl here dont really know what they are talking about. And have gone on and on and drafted waaaaaaay far !!
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Old July 15th, 2005, 02:56 AM   #60
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Walking for 15 min from June to late August to the office is impossible. You can't arrive dry!
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