Japan tests latest Bullet Train capable of 360km/h (224mph) service speed!

[*UofT*]

I don't know much about Bullet Trains and the like so please bare with me with the following questions.

I've always wanted North American Cities to be connected with High Speed Railways, Is it possible at all to have perhaps a Maglev at speeds in excess of 500kmh connecting major cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York?

Or over longer distances is it more likely to have TGV's and Shinkansen like Bullet Trains?

[DonQui]

Originally Posted by *UofT*

I don't know much about Bullet Trains and the like so please bare with me with the following questions.

I've always wanted North American Cities to be connected with High Speed Railways, Is it possible at all to have perhaps a Maglev at speeds in excess of 500kmh connecting major cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York?

Or over longer distances is it more likely to have TGV's and Shinkansen like Bullet Trains?

Well, first off, I think that the North American case is perhaps very different from the European case, as our railways, to put it bluntly, are significantly underfunded. And a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal high speed rail line could be the most profitable Canadian one, connecting the capital with the two largest cities speaking the two languages of Canada.

And throw in a Chicago-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Detroit-Windsor-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal scenario, and that sounds damn sexy.

I think that we could probably still do with regular high speed rail.

I thin kthe distance between Toronto and New York that exists by rail is already 550 miles, so you probably could in about 3.5 hours assuming European average speeds connect Toronto in a Toronto-Hamilton-Niagra-Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Albany-New York route. New York-Montreal would be even quicker.

I am not sure about Maglev though. I think that considering the larger distances involved in North American transport versus more compact Europe, I think that Maglev could make more sense here. However, I think that it would be too untested a technology and at least in the states, we are VERY timidi about such things.

In short, Maglev probably would be better in certain circumstances, but I think that building high speed rail that is compatable with the existing infranstructure would be an easier sell.

[johnnypd]

los angeles to san francisco is less than 400 miles by road. how long does it take to make the journey by train? up to eleven hours, often more. that's like it taking eleven hours to go from say king's cross to edinburgh waverly (actually a longer journey).

disgraceful really. there's no excuse for amtrak to be so lame, a lot of the journey isn't even by train you have to take a bus. these cities should be connected up, most of the journey is across flat central plains so high speeds should be able to be achieved.

[*UofT*]

Thanks for the help Don Qui

Honestly a Maglev from the San Francisco to San Diego would just be MIND BLOWING!!

A Maglev Connecting Toronto-Chicago-NewYork-Montreal would also be a dream come true, But as we all know North Americans are SUV obsessed so chances of those two Maglev lines are next to nothing.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by johnnypd

los angeles to san francisco is less than 400 miles by road. how long does it take to make the journey by train? up to eleven hours, often more. that's like it taking eleven hours to go from say king's cross to edinburgh waverly (actually a longer journey).

disgraceful really. there's no excuse for amtrak to be so lame, a lot of the journey isn't even by train you have to take a bus. these cities should be connected up, most of the journey is across flat central plains so high speeds should be able to be achieved.

That's really quite shocking and unacceptable for a country like America, especially on a route between two of their most major cities. The UK has suffered from years of underinvestment and has one of the most neglected railway systems in Western Europe and yet that kind of time is shocking even to us. What would a similar journey in France be like? Paris to Bordeaux perhaps? I've been on that route and I think I remember it taking something like 2 and a half hours. Absolutely crazy!

[DonQui]

Originally Posted by Andrew

That's really quite shocking and unacceptable for a country like America, especially on a route between two of their most major cities. The UK has suffered from years of underinvestment and has one of the most neglected railway systems in Western Europe and yet that kind of time is shocking even to us. What would a similar journey in France be like? Paris to Bordeaux perhaps? I've been on that route and I think I remember it taking something like 2 and a half hours. Absolutely crazy!

Not quite shocking actually, though perhaps still disgusting.

If we had the population density of Britain, we we be at about, say, 2.5 to 3.0 billion people in the US.

Low density to begin with + low density development + car oriented culture + inadequate funding =

I place more blame on the last three factors (no reason for Houston to be so ). And when you think about all the space that we have as a country, it is not surprising that our development has been "out" as upposed to "up."

[Rigadon]

Originally Posted by DonQui

The problem with maglev though it is completely not compatable with the existing tracks. You could open up SO many more cities to high speed travel by buidling one high speed main track route through Britain (give how skinny it is) and then have the trains branch off to existing rails at a normal speed.

The fact that one high speed line can cover so many of the uK's major cities is why its peferct for maglev. Changing trains to reach the less major cities that arent on that line just isnt thta big a deal.Most people that live in the SE including places like Brighton are used to the idea of changing at London.

One of the great attractions of trams over buses is the fixed line- people know the stops that each tram will go to and dont have to fuck about with tiemtabels and bus numbers.

Your plan would have the slight advantage that trains could go direct to other cities without a change but also lead to a disadvantage that in order for trains to be branching off and entering onto the high speed line mid way the frequency of services between each of the major cites on ther line must be lower.



The Spanish situation is different becuase as you sya you cnat have oeb main line whcih covers the major cities.

[Mosaic]

What a great news!!!

[Salif]

So what are the measurements of your typical bullet train then?

[Isaac Newell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2dd...elated&search=

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Salif

So what are the measurements of your typical bullet train then?

They're about 400m long (much longer than all European trainsets except for Eurostar - and even Eurostar is shorter than the 300km/h capable 500 Series Shinkansen in Isaac's video) and carry 1324 (single deck) or 1634 (double deck) passengers - far more than any European trainset. Even two French double-decker Duplex TGVs attached end-to-end carry far fewer passengers than a standard single-decked Shinkansen and yet the Japanese trains nonethess offer far more legroom.

[TallBox]

Monkey, how fast does the Eurostar reach in the UK? Does it approach it's design speed or is it restricted? If so, are there plans to remove the restrictions for trains to travel at high speed here?

[Monkey]

^ Eurostar goes 300km/h (186mph) in the UK on phase 1 of the CTRL and has done since 2003. Phase II, the part from outer London to St Pancras, much of it in tunnels, begins operating in November this year (construction is already complete). The top speed is slightly slower than the 300km/h achieved on phase 1 in Kent - mainly because of the tunnels. Eurostar trainsets are technically capable of hitting 320km/h service speeds but they don't operate at this speed anywhere at present.

[Salif]

Originally Posted by Monkey

They're about 400m long (much longer than all European trainsets except for Eurostar - and even Eurostar is shorter than the 300km/h capable 500 Series Shinkansen in Isaac's video) and carry 1324 (single deck) or 1634 (double deck) passengers - far more than any European trainset. Even two French double-decker Duplex TGVs attached end-to-end carry far fewer passengers than a standard single-decked Shinkansen and yet the Japanese trains nonethess offer far more legroom.

Don't SNCF and DB achieve those lengths with double sets?

What about the 'bullet' trains loading gauge?

Seem to be much wider then your typical European train.

[Isaac Newell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkd11moJ_Es

Their schedules put Europe to shame (although the pendolinos out of Euston run to a pretty tight schedule)

They have three types

Kodama - stops everywhere
Hikari - stops at large towns
Nozomi - Only stops in the major metropolitan areas

So you get lots of overtaking

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Salif

Don't SNCF and DB achieve those lengths with double sets?

Yes they achieve comparable length with double sets but Eurostar is the only European single set to match the length of Shinkansen trains. However no European trains come close to matching the capacity of Shinkansen trainsets.

Originally Posted by Salif

What about the 'bullet' trains loading gauge? Seem to be much wider then your typical European train.

I think the loading gauge very high even though the track gauge is the same as in Britain and Europe. They can seat 3-2 across (like commuter trains in Britain) yet the seats and corridors seem far wider than even 2-2 trainsets in Europe. The carriages are also longer on Japanese trains so there are fewer space wasting divides. Bullet trains are also multiple units (unlike TGV trainsets which are locomotives and carriages) so passengers can seat along the entire length of the train - including the end cars. They also don't waste space with buffet cars. Instead you have airline style service on trolleys. Japan invented high speed rail and they still do it best.

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by gothicform

good point about acceleration.
personally id replace our entire intercity network with next gen tgv and then have a maglev spine linking just the biggest cities together.

So what would happen with all the local branch lines, like the one i used to take to get to university between Penistone and Sheffield??

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by Salif

Don't SNCF and DB achieve those lengths with double sets?

What about the 'bullet' trains loading gauge?

Seem to be much wider then your typical European train.

Originally Posted by Monkey

Yes they achieve comparable length with double sets but Eurostar is the only European single set to match the length of Shinkansen trains. However no European trains come close to matching the capacity of Shinkansen trainsets.

Eurostar 2 power cars +18 trailers
TGV 2 power cars + 8 trailers.
Though 2xTGVs is practiacally the same length, it would only have 16 passenger trailers. Obviously 3+2 seating helps, but if I remember right dont Shinkansen have no dedicated power cars like Pendolino's? Hence seating in every vehicle?

[Monkey]

^ That's right. I explained that on post #36 if you look.

Here is an interesting comparison of formations, capacities, and speeds of different train types in Britain, France, and Japan. Most Japanese Shinkansen have a capacity of 1324 passengers. The double deck E4 Series Shinkansen has a world record capacity of 1,634 passengers. TGVs are slightly faster than Shinkansens apart from the 500 Series which shares the 186 mph (300 kph) maximum speed with TGV's and Eurostars. As you can see Eurostars are the best trains in Europe - double the length and capacity of a regular TGV Atlantique but running at the same 186 mph (300 kph) speed:


Virgin Pendolino (class 390)
Formation: electric multiple unit with 8 or 9 cars
Capacity: 363 or 439 seats
Service speed: 225 kph

First Great Western Adelante (class 180)
Formation: diesel multiple unit with 5 or 10 cars
Capacity: 280 passengers or 560 in double formation.
Service speed: 200 kph

Inter City 125 or HST (class 43)
Formation: diesel electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 600 passengers
Service speed: 200 kph

Inter City 225 (class 91)
Formation: electric locomotive hauling 9 carriages and 1 driving van trailer
Capacity: 508 passengers
Speed: 225 kph

TGV (older Paris Sud-Est type sets)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 377 passengers
Service speed: 270 kph.

TGV (newer Atlantique type sets)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 10 trailers
Capacity: 485 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph

TGV Duplex (double decker)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 545 passengers or 1090 in double formation (European record)
Service speed: 300 kph

TGV Korea
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 18 trailers
Capacity: 935 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph

Eurostar
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 18 trailers
Capacity: 794 passengers (394m long - European record)
Service speed: 300 kph

Shinkansen Series 300
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars
Capacity: 1324 passengers
Service speed: 270 kph

Shinkansen Series 500
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars
Capacity: 1324 passengers (404m long - joint world record with N700 and 700T)
Service speed: 300 kph

Shinkansen Series 700
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars
Capacity: 1324 passengers
Service speed: 285 kph

Shinkansen Series E4 (double decker)
Formation: electric multiple unit with 8 or 16 cars
Capacity: 812 passengers or 1624 in double formation (world record)
Service speed: 240 kph

Shinkansen Series N700
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars (404m long - joint world record with 500 and 700T)
Capacity: 1324 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph

Shinkansen Series 700T (Taiwan)
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars (404m long - joint world record with 500 and N700)
Capacity: 989 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph


The world's best high speed trains are the 500 Series and N700 Series Shinkansens. They combine 300km/h operating speed (up to 320km/h if running behind schedule - which in Japan is hardly ever) and 1324 passengers seated with loads of legroom and seats aligned to windows.

[Trainman Dave]

Thank you for that very usefull summary.

I expect in the next five years that the Chinese will surpass the Shinkansen series E4 with 20-car double decker high speed trains with a capacity of about 2000 passengers. These trains would require plaforms approaching 500 meters long which was in the specification which was published for Chinese high speed lines in 2000/2001. (I am still searching for the reference to this specification as my stored URL is no longer valid)

Interestingly these very high capacity trains were only required to operate at 250 km/h maximun. There was a comment that they were designed for the short distance, very densely traveled routes and energy efficiency was more important than high speed.

Does anyone know if the Japanese have considered lenghtening the platforms on the Shinkansen lines?