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Old November 16th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #121
Paul D
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"Chip-on-Shoulderville".
What's there to have a chip on the shoulder about? Liverpool as a regional city oozes quality on some many fronts. I can never understand who or what it is we are meant to be envious of.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #122
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What's there to have a chip on the shoulder about? Liverpool as a regional city oozes quality on some many fronts. I can never understand who or what it is we are meant to be envious of.
Precisely. Tell golden that.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #123
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Ah the shitbag strikes again.

Golden, half of your points above have been proved wrong time and time again.

High Speed Rail has worked in other countries and has seriously benefitted the cities they connect.

It would be a very different story if Liverpool was connected to HSR, wouldn't it?

What "indications" are there that Liverpool will become a two-airport city? LJL is tiny at the moment, what makes you think you'll need another? In terms of 'major UK airports', Liverpool is seen as the holiday-makers one. The only flights from Liverpool are those to holiday resorts. It's not a business airport, it's not a business city.

Getting really sick of your talking crap now, Golden. You just spout shit and then don't pay attention when people use statistics and fact to prove you wrong. Seriously.

I love Liverpool, I thought it was fab when I visited. But christ, people like you do it a right disfavour and make the whole city seem like "Chip-on-Shoulderville".


Oh and by the way, it's seriously obvious that you have a massive complex with Manchester. The fact that you mention in 2/3rds of your posts and are CONSTANTLY complaining or comparing to it is really disturbing.
Come on you know that any sane person on here knows that Manchester is bigger than Liverpool. Looking at the 2011 census it puts Manchester at 1.9 million and Liverpool at 1.2 million once all the areas are included. Just let the trolls believe what they want lol.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #124
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Generally, it's accepted that Manchester and Leeds are the largest urban / city regions in the North - as, like the Birmingham/Coventry and Glasgow regions, they have a population of somewhere between 2.5m and 3.0m people depending on where the boundaries are drawn. People can argue until the cows come home on the boundaries (and yes, Leeds does contain an awful lot of green space), but that is where most geographers and urbanists would put them.

Liverpool comes next in terms of size, but in Liverpool's case the geography is more complicated and so harder to reach agreement on. No-one worth listening to would claim it has less than around 1.7m, and few claim it has more than 2.2m. For what it's worth, companies that invest on the basis of city catchment areas tend to categorise Liverpool as having a population of around or somewhat over 2m, for example that is the type of data a retailer will consider when considering whether to open a branch in Liverpool One, or to place an advert on local radio in Liverpool). Personally I'd share your view that Liverpool has about 2m people, but that does make it slightly smaller than Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, whose real size is in the 2.5 - 3m range.
Liverpool is bigger than Leeds though. The Leeds City Region however is slightly bigger but it includes Bradford and all that which are not part of Leeds.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 07:16 PM   #125
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Yes, London Liverpool East Paul McCartney Airport.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #126
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Clearly Manchester is an airport town with more reach than the city warrants. It's recent rise in population certainly testifies to that. It benefits hugely by the branding, ownership and closeness to the airport and has a local advantage compared to say Bolton,Wigan,Blackburn and even Liverpool.

This advantage will be short lived as the HS2 link to its airport will turn Manchester into a contracting London dormitory town as it serves London's need to increase its air capacity and its pull economy and also with Manchester playing second fiddle to Liverpool in the Atlantic Gateway Development.

Going back to the thread, the one thing that Manchester would love to have even more than its airport is the Liverpool Waterfront. The development of the Superport,tourism and the Atlantic Gateway will mean that Liverpool will eventually benefit more from Manchester airport than Manchester. It may well have to be rebranded the London and Liverpool International Airport. The indications are that Liverpool will become a two airport city.
The above work of fiction is surely worthy of a prize for creativity. But if you actually believe a word of it you must be a deluded fool.

Manchester and Liverpool have grown simultaneously and symbiotically for the last 300 years. What makes you think that Liverpool will spontaneously eclipse Manchester all of a sudden?

Why will Manchester not benefit from the Atlantic Gateway? How will HS2 kill Manchester? Looking at precedents from around the world, high speed rail seems to be beneficial for anywhere with a station as well as neighbouring settlements. I don't know of any cities that have begun to decline due to the arrival of high speed rail.

As Paul D said, Liverpool has a lot to be proud of. So why are you so obsessed with Manchester and seem to be wishing its demise? Whenever Manchester is mentioned you seem to pop out of the woodwork to spout the theory that it is doomed to failure and has no future. It's almost like you want it to happen. Eliminating the competition is the easiest way to win I suppose.

Manchester and Liverpool are so close they are practically touching. Any sensible person will see that both cities have a bright future. One will not eclipse the other.

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Old November 16th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #127
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Come on you know that any sane person on here knows that Manchester is bigger than Liverpool. Looking at the 2011 census it puts Manchester at 1.9 million and Liverpool at 1.2 million once all the areas are included. Just let the trolls believe what they want lol.
Thanks Tomo, you've reinforced my view of Liverpool. These jokers let the city down so much
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Old November 16th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #128
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Thanks Tomo, you've reinforced my view of Liverpool. These jokers let the city down so much
I wouldnt take it seriously. Its only a forum. I have in the past but I try not to now.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #129
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VDB your ability to fight temptation was found wanting.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder about Manchester. My first point was to correct Kopboy.

You say HS rail has worked in other countries. Well yes and no. It works for the centralised pull economy not for the peripheral regional economy. The conclusion below comes from a study of TGV in France that's been going for about 30 years:

In conclusion therefore there appears very little evidence that investment in high speed rail in France has had any significant impact in reducing regional and local economic disparities based on the most obvious yardstick – unemployment. Over a period of nearly thirty years since TGV services started running, there has clearly been no "transformational" effect, in fact the evidence shows that disparities appear to have worsened..

Clearly, the same will happen in the UK(or even worse in the UK as regional economies would be much closer to the main international hub pull economy than they are in France) as the centralised London pull economy ensures faster connectivity to Birmingham,Manchester and Edindurgh airports to fuel its own ever expanding economy at the expense of the regions. Manchester is not an international pull economy and its HS2 future will be as a portal to the London pull economy. In the future the more and faster regional connectivity to London the weaker their own pull economies will be. If I'm anti Manchester I'd be encouraging you to go HS2. I certainly don't want Liverpool to have an HS2 direct service to London.

The Atlantic Gateway has a much greater chance of making the North West a pull economy than HS2 ever will. It will create a pull economy in the north that is much less reliant from imports from southern ports. This is the economic direction we should be heading for. Whether you like it or not Liverpool will be the major player and its own airport will not satisfy its economic importance and it will acquire Manchester as its airport to the BRIC countries.

Last edited by golden66; November 17th, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #130
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VDB your ability to fight temptation was found wanting.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder about Manchester. My first point was to correct Kopboy.

You say HS rail has worked in other countries. Well yes and no. It works for the centralised pull economy not for the peripheral regional economy. The conclusion below comes from a study of TGV in France that's been going for about 30 years:

In conclusion therefore there appears very little evidence that investment in high speed rail in France has had any significant impact in reducing regional and local economic disparities based on the most obvious yardstick – unemployment. Over a period of nearly thirty years since TGV services started running, there has clearly been no "transformational" effect, in fact the evidence shows that disparities appear to have worsened..

Clearly, the same will happen in the UK as the centralised London pull economy ensures faster connectivity to Birmingham,Manchester and Edindurgh airports to fuel its own ever expanding economy at the expense of the regions. Manchester is not an international pull economy and its HS2 future will be as a portal to the London pull economy. In the future the more and faster regional connectivity to London the weaker their own pull economies will be. If I'm anti Manchester I'd be encouraging you to go HS2. I certainly don't want Liverpool to have an HS2 direct service to London.

The Atlantic Gateway has a much greater chance of making the North West a pull economy than HS2 ever will. It will create a pull economy in the north that is much less reliant from imports from southern ports. This is the economic direction we should be heading for. Whether you like it or not Liverpool will be the major player and its own airport will not satisfy its economic importance and it will acquire Manchester as its airport to the BRIC countries.

You've made loads of good points there and I actually found myself agreeing with some of them, but:-

- London cannot continue being the critical mass it is. Companies can't afford it, residents can't afford it. We're already seeing a huge number of organisations in London heading up North, mainly to Manchester and Leeds, because they're both much cheaper. I've often heard forumers (particulary ill tonkso) claiming that many people down south see Manchester as a viable alternative to London. If London's prices carry on shooting up, it's unsustainable for itself.

- In this instance, HS2 will not serve as a "London-connector" but as a regional connector. Many companies will have offices in all cities and will make good use of the network in that instance.

- So what if Manchester/Birmingham airports get more well used by people from London? That's a good thing! Our airports will be used more. I'd much rather have this than them build yet another new airport in the SE.

- I don't believe your bullcrap about the Atlantic Gateway. You claim it'll link Liverpool and Manchester to the world and the BRIC countries... we've already had Manchester airport delivering us to the world for 30+ years now!


As a conclusion, HS2 will connect Manchester with London. What could possibly be better? An Alpha++ world city 2 hours away from Manchester. If the "Northshoring" trend continues, this will vastly benefit Manchester and everywhere else.

No offence, but I would rather Manchester be linked with London than Liverpool. I'd rather Manchester worked closely with London instead of Liverpool.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:05 PM   #131
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- I don't believe your bullcrap about the Atlantic Gateway. You claim it'll link Liverpool and Manchester to the world and the BRIC countries... we've already had Manchester airport delivering us to the world for 30+ years now!
The obvious flaw in this devalues what is otherwise quite a reasonable argument.

Golden is a bit of a zealot and often doesn't think through the things he is posting but he is making a very valid point here.

Sure Manchester Airport is our connection to the world and increasingly so over the last few years and that is a good thing for all of us in the North West. Of course, Liverpool Airport over the past 15 years has increasingly become our connection to Europe but, though we are often accused of it, very few of us seriosly believe that Liverpool Airport will grow to have the size and range of services of Manchester.

However, in terms of the movement of goods, Liverpool seaport is the number one outlet for our region and the forthcoming expansion, should it go ahead, will give the region far greater access to the markets of the world. That is until they develop container carrying aircraft.

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As a conclusion, HS2 will connect Manchester with London. What could possibly be better? An Alpha++ world city 2 hours away from Manchester. If the "Northshoring" trend continues, this will vastly benefit Manchester and everywhere else.

No offence, but I would rather Manchester be linked with London than Liverpool. I'd rather Manchester worked closely with London instead of Liverpool.
You already have London 2 hours away as we do in Liverpool (OK 2 hrs 10 mins), HS2 will reduce that considerably.

No need for us to take offence as I am sure most Liverpool forummers would say much the same thing. However, like it or not, our two cities are stuck with each other. It is always going to be much easier, quicker and cheaper for people in Liverpool to get to Manchester and vice-versa so why should we always see each others cities as liabilities?

London may be an Alpha++ world city but Liverpool was the first world city and this gets us back onto what this thread is all about. The Liverpool waterfront is an invaluable asset from a lot of viewpoints. It is not just the history, the architecture or the fact that it includes the port and the cruise liner terminal. More than that, it gives the whole of the north west a presence and identity and, as such is invaluable to the whole region.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #132
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VDB, I don't agree with any of your points.

The London will burn itself out argument is a nonsense. It's a tired argument from wishful thinkers who are desperate and content only for economic crumbs. London will never surrender its economic might to the regions. The regions are now seen as an economic irrelevance to all conquering London , its challengers are now seen as Paris,New York,Shanghai,Hong Kong,Tokyo etc.

Your views about HS2 are delusional and are formed by the London propoganda machine. It baffles me why you think HS2 is going to be transformational to Manchester when HS rail has had a negative economic impact on the even more HS rail connected regions in France. It won't be so much people from London using Manchester airport but rather inward International business streams who will automatically by-pass Manchester when given even quicker and easier access to London. Manchester airport will be used more not to benefit the Manchester economy but London's.

What you miserably don't understand is that for a region to economically prosper it must have its own viable and sustainable pull economy. HS2 will only connect you to another regions pull economy it will not benefit your local economy,it will not make your region a pull economy, it will only benefit the pull economy it serves.

The only game in town, our last chance saloon to be a pull economy is The Atlantic Gateway. Your animosity and reluctance to supporting Liverpool in this economic challenge and your subservient sycophantic surrender to the self obsessed London economic monster is frankly disgusting.

Martin S, I Know you try to be Mr Sensible but being sensible isn't always sensible. When it comes to economic survival, which we are in the thick of, it pays to be as much a zealot as our London masters.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 01:55 PM   #133
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The obvious flaw in this devalues what is otherwise quite a reasonable argument.

Golden is a bit of a zealot and often doesn't think through the things he is posting but he is making a very valid point here.

Sure Manchester Airport is our connection to the world and increasingly so over the last few years and that is a good thing for all of us in the North West. Of course, Liverpool Airport over the past 15 years has increasingly become our connection to Europe but, though we are often accused of it, very few of us seriosly believe that Liverpool Airport will grow to have the size and range of services of Manchester.

However, in terms of the movement of goods, Liverpool seaport is the number one outlet for our region and the forthcoming expansion, should it go ahead, will give the region far greater access to the markets of the world. That is until they develop container carrying aircraft.



You already have London 2 hours away as we do in Liverpool (OK 2 hrs 10 mins), HS2 will reduce that considerably.

No need for us to take offence as I am sure most Liverpool forummers would say much the same thing. However, like it or not, our two cities are stuck with each other. It is always going to be much easier, quicker and cheaper for people in Liverpool to get to Manchester and vice-versa so why should we always see each others cities as liabilities?

London may be an Alpha++ world city but Liverpool was the first world city and this gets us back onto what this thread is all about. The Liverpool waterfront is an invaluable asset from a lot of viewpoints. It is not just the history, the architecture or the fact that it includes the port and the cruise liner terminal. More than that, it gives the whole of the north west a presence and identity and, as such is invaluable to the whole region.
I agree with all of that too.

I personally don't see Liverpool as a burden on Manchester, and vice versa... but it comes across as though Golden thinks Manchester should start to worship Liverpool as its overlord. It's not going to happen!

Liverpool and Manchester share something most cities around the world don't have, that is distance. If we work together, both cities can make use of both cities. We can make use of Liverpool's port, harbour etc and whatever else is planned.. as well as its beaches and whatnot, and likewise Liverpool can benefit from Manchester's airport and HS2 connections.

I'm not so sure what we're arguing about anymore to be honest....



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VDB, I don't agree with any of your points.

The London will burn itself out argument is a nonsense. It's a tired argument from wishful thinkers who are desperate and content only for economic crumbs. London will never surrender its economic might to the regions. The regions are now seen as an economic irrelevance to all conquering London , its challengers are now seen as Paris,New York,Shanghai,Hong Kong,Tokyo etc.

Your views about HS2 are delusional and are formed by the London propoganda machine. It baffles me why you think HS2 is going to be transformational to Manchester when HS rail has had a negative economic impact on the even more HS rail connected regions in France. It won't be so much people from London using Manchester airport but rather inward International business streams who will automatically by-pass Manchester when given even quicker and easier access to London. Manchester airport will be used more not to benefit the Manchester economy but London's.

What you miserably don't understand is that for a region to economically prosper it must have its own viable and sustainable pull economy. HS2 will only connect you to another regions pull economy it will not benefit your local economy,it will not make your region a pull economy, it will only benefit the pull economy it serves.

The only game in town, our last chance saloon to be a pull economy is The Atlantic Gateway. Your animosity and reluctance to supporting Liverpool in this economic challenge and your subservient sycophantic surrender to the self obsessed London economic monster is frankly disgusting.

Martin S, I Know you try to be Mr Sensible but being sensible isn't always sensible. When it comes to economic survival, which we are in the thick of, it pays to be as much a zealot as our London masters.

London has always competed with the likes of Paris, New York etc. It's been an important global city for about 2 millenia now. Nothing's changed.

Stop using the French argument. Look at China. You're not telling me that Beijing is the only 'big ass kick ass' city in China, are you? It used to be. Then the government linked its cities better, pumped investment into places like Hong Kong and Shanghai and now both are world cities. HK is something like the third largest financial centre on Earth, and they're reports that it'll overtake London in 10 years time.

You said; "... is that for a region to economically prosper it must have its own viable and sustainable pull economy"

The North West's "pull economy" is... you guessed it .. Manchester. The largest city (it is, Golden, don't pull out the Salford argument), by far the largest GDP (generating half of the NW's output), it's by far the North West's largest financial, law and Real Estate (FIRE) economy, by far the North West's most expensive city to live in and if you believe the GaWC, it's the second city in the UK, being the only city in the UK to feature as a Beta world city (with Birmingham as a Beta-, and Liverpool not featuring at all). If you want the link to this data, ask me.

Manchester has by far the largest airport in the UK outside of London, the best rail links, the best road links.... what more of an economic centre do you want?

So no, our 'last chance' is not the Atlantic Gateway. It'd be nice, but it's not our only chance.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #134
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It appears that you are determined to miss the point entirely. My point is about what effect HS2 will have on our regional economy once it becomes established over many years. I validated my argument by showing the conclusions of the effect of HS rail in France which has a similar economic model to the UK. Bizarrely you rejected all of this and would rather compare the UK economic model to China rather than France. That's put me into a state of pure bewilderment!

The Atlantic Gateway is the only future viable and sustainable economic development that will transform our entire region into a significant international pull economy that will largely address the London and North West regional economic in-balance. The argument is not about comparing the current economic superiority between Manchester or Liverpool it is about how can we make our region the most dynamic and economically sustainable region in the UK over the next 50 years. HS2 is a dangerous distraction and should be abandoned. Liverpool and Manchester must unite together to form one of the most expensive and expansive development projects in UK history.Sorry, but my expectations and standards of a viable and sustainable regional pull economy go much higher than Manchester's current offer.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #135
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Martin S, I Know you try to be Mr Sensible but being sensible isn't always sensible. When it comes to economic survival, which we are in the thick of, it pays to be as much a zealot as our London masters.
Our 'London masters' may be zealots but they always come over as sensible people. The problem that we often have in Liverpool is that we make sensible arguments but come over as zealots. Maybe that is why the truth about Hillsborough took such a long time to come out - here are the Scousers whining again.

The point about sensible arguments is that they can be understood by people who don't share our zealotry.

Liverpool needs a direct link to HS2, without it the city's economy will suffer a major disadvantage when compared to that of Manchester. There are many sensible and reasonable arguments for a Liverpool-serving alignment to be preferred but there is a danger they will be drowned out by all the 'Manchester gets everything and we get nothing' whinging.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #136
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Martin S, if you think Thatcher came over as sensible then I worry for you.

The truth about Hillsborough wouldn't have surfaced without Liverpool's passionate zeal being just sensible would never had been enough.

I do think through my points and support them with evidence, you clearly don't . I suspect with you there is a selfish vested interest why you want Liverpool to have a direct HS2 link to London rather than what is best for our regional economy or concerns about competing with Manchester.

This is taken from Parliamentary research:

A better connection between two regions with different development levels not only gives firms in a less developed region better access to the inputs and markets of more developed regions. It also makes it easier for firms in richer regions to supply poorer regions at a distance, and can thus harm the industrialisation prospects of less developed areas."

- The Economic effects of High Speed Rail Investment

Ginés de Rus, University of Las Palmas 2008
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Old November 18th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #137
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Martin S, if you think Thatcher came over as sensible then I worry for you.

The truth about Hillsborough wouldn't have surfaced without Liverpool's passionate zeal being just sensible would never had been enough.

I do think through my points and support them with evidence, you clearly don't . I suspect with you there is a selfish vested interest why you want Liverpool to have a direct HS2 link to London rather than what is best for our regional economy or concerns about competing with Manchester.

This is taken from Parliamentary research:

A better connection between two regions with different development levels not only gives firms in a less developed region better access to the inputs and markets of more developed regions. It also makes it easier for firms in richer regions to supply poorer regions at a distance, and can thus harm the industrialisation prospects of less developed areas."

- The Economic effects of High Speed Rail Investment

Ginés de Rus, University of Las Palmas 2008
Goldie, Of course Thatcher came over as sensible - how else do you think she got herself re-elected three times? The Hilsborough campaigners were sensible but were easily dismissed as zealots.

I don't want to argue about HS2 on this thread as it has been sidetracked enough but I suspect that your real reason for opposing the new line is that you are a Manchester forummer opposed to economic growth in your rival city.

Prove me wrong.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:13 PM   #138
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Martin S, you try to be sensible but you fail miserably. Anyone who says that the outcome of General Elections is based on fair minded, sensible, sophisticated,articulate reasoning have really no conception. People voted for Thatcher not because of an admiration of how sensible she comes across but because of her brand of ruthless politics that appealed to the "get rich quick" mantra of the times.

The ordeal of finding the truth from Hilsborough required Liverpudlians to combine pragmatism with zealotry. They knew all along they were right but they had a mountain to climb to find it. If you don't feel comfortable with this form of rather unique Liverpool zealotry then perhaps you should live in a more conformist town eg Basingstoke.

I was obviously spot on about my suspicions about you.

I will now conclude on this thread by saying that I want the best possible long term economic future for both Manchester and Liverpool and this would be to back The Atlantic Gateway and abandon the HS2 direct rail link to London.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #139
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What actually is 'the Atlantic Gateway' other than a marketing term coined by Peel Holdings to describe any future project that happens to be located on land the company owns as a result of its purchase of the Manchester Ship Canal and Mersey Docks and Harbour companies? A yet to be built freight terminal by Trafford Park, for example, is part of 'the Atlantic Gateway'; the existing multimodal terminal closer to Liverpool's port at Widnes is not.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #140
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The Atlantic Gateway is basically something that links together Peel's sites along the MSC. The core idea seems to be that container ships unload at Seaforth and the containers are taken on barges down the MSC to new inland terminals where they will be transhipped onto road and rail.

I can't fault the idea and seems to me far better than the old days when container ships from Manchester would by-pass the Port of Liverpool - all the same, it does represent a massive corporate venture that appears to be leading planning policy rather than following it.
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