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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:33 AM   #2241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
But if you're in Xinjiang, the sea is almost certainly too far away to remain a real factor in transport. Which is probably where a good railway connection might be of help.
What's wrong with existing railways?
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #2242
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They might be just fine; I don't know. I did not imply to say that anything was wrong with them. Probably you can only tell if the market for this type of transcontinental transport matures ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFZANMNIM View Post
From Xinjiang's border to a port in Oman sea, for example, Karachi, Gwader or Chabahar, it is less than 3000 km. These are the closest all-year round sea port.
Port might be all-year, but the road there is not.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 10:31 AM   #2243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
They might be just fine; I don't know. I did not imply to say that anything was wrong with them. Probably you can only tell if the market for this type of transcontinental transport matures ...


Port might be all-year, but the road there is not.
Because they are not built by the standards. This is the main problem. For example, why are all the motorways in Alpes Highlands in France and Switzerland all year round?
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #2244
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Sorry mate, a comparison between the Tian Shan and the Karakoram on the one hand and the Alps on the other hand is a bit ridiculous. Just compare the ranges. The main crossings over the Alps are no higher than 2000 meters in altitude. The lower ones (notably the Brenner) have been overcome with a motorway over the saddle, the higher ones have been tunneled at an altitude that is typically around 1100 meters. The main tunnel is never longer than 17 kilometers. Within some 100 kilometers from the pass, you are invariably back at lowland altitudes. Compare that to Karakoram, which is truly a drive of hundreds of kilometers through very difficult terrain leading to pass at over 4500 meters, as high as the highest peaks in the Alps. It's not something that can be cut short by a few tunnels.

The economic analysis is completely different as well. The costs for the Alpine countries of not offering a transalpine connection at any time of the year is huge, since the demand for transalpine connections is large. Sending traffic on a bypass of hundreds of kilometers (e.g. Basel to Milan via Ventimiglia) is so costly that it justifies the costs of creating an all-year connection. The potential demand for trans-Karakoram or trans-Tian Shan is much lower, very much lower. So nobody will make the investment.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #2245
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However, most of any new roads that would be built in those regions would be beside rivers, which makes it easier to build.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #2246
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You may want to go out and have a reality check.

Beside rivers is probably easier to build than having to move from valley to valley, but it took Pakistan a couple of decades to build their side of the KKH for a reason. The valley is narrow. Building near the actual riverbed is prone to flooding and landslides, building uphill will require bridges and tunnels all over the place to permit motorists to drive faster. The further you want to move towards expressway standard, the more billions the work would cost.

In terms of bridges and tunnels it would be absolutely stunning, but economically it would be a complete waste. I'd rather see China save Greece or so.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #2247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
You may want to go out and have a reality check.

Beside rivers is probably easier to build than having to move from valley to valley, but it took Pakistan a couple of decades to build their side of the KKH for a reason. The valley is narrow. Building near the actual riverbed is prone to flooding and landslides, building uphill will require bridges and tunnels all over the place to permit motorists to drive faster. The further you want to move towards expressway standard, the more billions the work would cost.

In terms of bridges and tunnels it would be absolutely stunning, but economically it would be a complete waste. I'd rather see China save Greece or so.
Fortunately, China has been doing an excelent job in building those types of motorways. Many of the pictures are in this forum itself. Like this one from I suppose would be G5.

Or this one
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #2248
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However, I would have to agree that with current demand, it would be a waste of resources and just a master peice for show-off.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:16 AM   #2249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
What's wrong with existing railways?
Well, it wouldn't be a problem if Russian railroads used the same technical standards (track gauge, coupling, etc) as those in China and central and western Europe, now would it?



Mike
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:20 AM   #2250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFZANMNIM View Post
Fortunately, China has been doing an excelent job in building those types of motorways. Many of the pictures are in this forum itself. Like this one from I suppose would be G5.

Or this one
I like it

sooo... very long bridge but find a pertol ?? how??
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:50 PM   #2251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Transportation of goods by sea is incredibly cheap. I once heard a figure that merchandise manufactured in China can be shipped to Europe for often as little as 10 cents per piece (it depends on the size of the merchandise of course). No other type of transport comes remotely close to that number. That type of economics means that, even from an inland location in China to an inland location in Europe, shipping for 20,000 km plus connecting transport will typically remain cheaper than chartering trucks or trains for the full 6,000 kilometer journey. You could of course opt for faster means of transport at a higher price, but you'd only do so for specific merchandise.

But if you're in Xinjiang, the sea is almost certainly too far away to remain a real factor in transport. Which is probably where a good railway connection might be of help.
China-Europe freight costs and time

Sea Freight: Lowest Cost. 60days+
Air Freight: Highest Cost. <7days

In between those 2 options is the railway which is medium cost and takes 20days
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Old December 6th, 2012, 12:09 AM   #2252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
You may want to go out and have a reality check.

Beside rivers is probably easier to build than having to move from valley to valley, but it took Pakistan a couple of decades to build their side of the KKH for a reason. The valley is narrow. Building near the actual riverbed is prone to flooding and landslides, building uphill will require bridges and tunnels all over the place to permit motorists to drive faster. The further you want to move towards expressway standard, the more billions the work would cost.

In terms of bridges and tunnels it would be absolutely stunning, but economically it would be a complete waste. I'd rather see China save Greece or so.
Would a Karakorum-Pakistan railway be technically more challenging than the Qinghai-Tibet railway?

Note that China decided against a highway for Tibet because they don't work in the winter, and that long-distance transport costs are much lower for a train.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:04 AM   #2253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Would a Karakorum-Pakistan railway be technically more challenging than the Qinghai-Tibet railway?

Note that China decided against a highway for Tibet because they don't work in the winter, and that long-distance transport costs are much lower for a train.
China didn't decide against a highway for Tibet. And Tibet's major highways do work in the winter.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:20 AM   #2254
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China and Europe aren't as close as some people here make it out to be. You have to consider distance between eastern China and western Europe, because western China is too sparsely populated to be interesting and eastern Europe isn't that interesting either.

I find it fascinating though how I live closer to China than the distance from westernmost to northeasternmost China is.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:49 AM   #2255
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Expressways opened in last 2 months:

10.1 Shilin-Suolongsi expressway 石锁高速, Yunnan Province
105km, 7.5 billion yuan

10.8 Dandong-Tonghua expressway 丹通高速, Liaoning Province
197km

10.8 Zhanghe-Gaizhou expressway 庄盖高速, Liaoning Province
99km

10.8 Fushun-Tonghua expressway 抚通高速, Liaoning Province
94km

10.8 Xinmin-Tieling expressway 新铁高速, Liaoning Province
75km

10.8 Hengren-Yongling expressway 桓永高速, Liaoning Province
66km

10.9 Ningde-Wuyi Mountain expressway 宁武高速, Fujian Province
203km, 15.16 billion yuan, 160 bridges and 43 tunnels

10.11 Kuitun-Kelamayi expressway 奎克高速, Xinjiang Province
135km, 3.5 billion yuan

10.16 Xgxingxia-Tulufan expressway 星吐高速, Xinjiang Province
589km, 3.58 billion yuan

10.17 Xiangtan-Laiyang expressway 潭耒高速, Hunan Province
103.952km, 2.686 billion yuan

10.25 Yongchun-Yongding expressway 龙岩双永高速, Fujian Province
237km

10.26 City Ring expressway Taigu connection 环城高速太谷连接线, Tiyuan, Shanxi Province
34.388km, 0.231 billion yuan

10.31 Suqian-Suxin expressway 宿新高速, Jiangsu Province
67.16km

10.31 Tongren-Dalong expressway 铜大高速, Guizhou Province
56km, 3.735 billion yuan

11.2 Fengxin-Tonggu expressway 奉铜高速, Jiangxi Province
154.4km, 6.95 billion yuan

11.7 Dalian Bay Inter-habor expressway 大连湾疏港高速, Liaoning rovince
4.492km, 0.3462 billion yuan

11.9 Xi'an-Shangzhou expressway 西商高速, Shaanxi Province
121km

11.18 Putian-Yongding expressway 莆永高速, Fujian Province
64km, 4.308 billion yuan

11.22 Yantai-Haiyang expressway 烟海高速, Shandong Province
80.375km, 4.37 billion yuan

11.22 Linyi-Zaozhuang expressway 临枣高速, Shandong Province
88.633km, 3.55 billion yuan

11.27 Guyaozi-Qingtongxia expressway 古青高速, Ningxia Province
81km

11.28 Naxi-Qianchuan expressway 纳黔高速, Sichuan and Guizhou Provinces
135km, 10.753 billion yuan

11.30 Hefei Xinqiao Airport expressway 新桥机场高速, Anhui Province
17.6km, 1.209 billion yuan

11.30 Yingxiu-Wenzhuan expressway 映汶高速, Sichuan Province
48.27km

--from openings, china-highway.com
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Old December 7th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #2256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
China and Europe aren't as close as some people here make it out to be. You have to consider distance between eastern China and western Europe, because western China is too sparsely populated to be interesting and eastern Europe isn't that interesting either.

I find it fascinating though how I live closer to China than the distance from westernmost to northeasternmost China is.
Also I found that from Tehran to Schengen Border, it is about 2600 Km and from Tehran to Chinese border it is 3000 Km.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:27 PM   #2257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
China and Europe aren't as close as some people here make it out to be. You have to consider distance between eastern China and western Europe, because western China is too sparsely populated to be interesting and eastern Europe isn't that interesting either.

I find it fascinating though how I live closer to China than the distance from westernmost to northeasternmost China is.
Do you think that China is only interested in the Western Europe and also, that it is not interesting in developing western (or middle) parts of its territory?

Continental route from Lanzhou to Prague, Wien, Bratislava, Krakow, Budapest is some 7 000 km. When you want to take the route on sea its 22 000 km on the sea + 3 000 km on the road or rail anyway.

Thus it is like comparing some 4 000 km on land to 22 000 km on the sea.
You break even here already on a railway that would cost 5 times more t/km than the sea shipping t/km. You make profit when the railway is less costly than that.

China trade with the region were at some $ 50 BLN a year with yearly growth of 30 %. The trade with the whole EU were at $ 500 BLN but the growth pace was at some 10 %.

Making the production place in western China renders the whole sea route as absurd. The land distance that you would need to cover is in both variants the same and you would have to pay addition for the sea shipping.

EDIT:
If the Chinese railway construction for double track are at $ 4 MLN per km, you get on some $ 16 BIL. I think it would be much cheaper as most of the 4 000 km distance is already covered and there would be needed mainly upgrades. But some $ 16 - 20 BLN is safe price if even the whole project would have to be done. Its more like only some 2 000 km would have to be upgraded and the price should get under $ 10 BLN.

I think a motorway would be perhaps more than double that number. But I also think that full blown motorway would not be needed, thus the cost could be more safe at some $ 40 - 50 BLN for the whole distance.

Last edited by Surel; December 7th, 2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #2258
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For medium-priority freight, it works out for anywhere in China to anywhere in Europe.

That is because it is a lot faster than a boat, but not as expensive as air freight.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:33 PM   #2259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
China didn't decide against a highway for Tibet. And Tibet's major highways do work in the winter.
So why did they build a railway instead of a proper 4lane highway to Tibet?
The geography and economics dictate that rail transport is the logical choice.

And I've been told that the highways in Tibet are normally blocked by snow/ice/rockfalls during the winter, just like in the American Rocky Mountains.
Is that not the case?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #2260
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Tibet is very dry, the annual precipitation is only 100 - 300 mm per year, so there are no blizzards with huge quantities of snow like in the Rocky Mountains, but blowing snow can be a problem in exposed areas even if snowfall is limited.
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